Micro Air

[StirCrazy]

Hi, just looking for input from people that have them on their effectiveness. I am thinking of getting a portable genny for the 5th wheel for those times that I need an AC and don't have power. I have a 15000BTU dometic AC, and I must figure out what size genny I need also.

As some of you know I personally hate the noise they make, so it must be quiet and really won't be used for anything else as my solar can do everything else. the other issue I have is there has only been 4 days in the last 5 years of camping where I needed an AC when I was boondocking, so I am really torn weather I need a genny or just see what it would take to be able to run on solar, but I think it's too tall of an order for solar.

[StirCrazy]

Grit dog wrote:
You’re buying a generator for an expected average of 0.8 days per year using the air conditioner? OoooKaaaaayy eh.

no, I am going to use it for other things mostly, but I want to get a quiet one that I can take camping when it is forecasted to be really hot out. then I can sell my noisy one and just have a nice quiet one to fill both needs... If I don't use it for camping that will be fine as that is the secondary purpose, but I still want it to be good for that. ie. very quiet

[JBarca]

StirCrazy wrote:

JBarca wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
Hi, just looking for input from people that have them on their effectiveness. I am thinking of getting a portable genny for the 5th wheel for those times that I need an AC and don't have power. I have a 15000BTU dometic AC, and I must figure out what size genny I need also.

Hi,

You might have sorted out your issue already, but I'll add this to help the cause. I just added a Micro Air to a Domeitc 15K commercial AC, and I have some data to share.

Nice info.

Thanks, you are welcome.

[Grit_dog]

You’re buying a generator for an expected average of 0.8 days per year using the air conditioner? OoooKaaaaayy eh.

[StirCrazy]

JBarca wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
Hi, just looking for input from people that have them on their effectiveness. I am thinking of getting a portable genny for the 5th wheel for those times that I need an AC and don't have power. I have a 15000BTU dometic AC, and I must figure out what size genny I need also.

As some of you know I personally hate the noise they make, so it must be quiet and really won't be used for anything else as my solar can do everything else. the other issue I have is there has only been 4 days in the last 5 years of camping where I needed an AC when I was boondocking, so I am really torn weather I need a genny or just see what it would take to be able to run on solar, but I think it's too tall of an order for solar.

Hi,

You might have sorted out your issue already, but I'll add this to help the cause. I just added a Micro Air to a Domeitc 15K commercial AC, and I have some data to share.

I have an older Honda 2000I genny. It is a good genny and served me well. I am sharing the data from the genny and camper working at about 500 ft elevation in central OH. So take this into account if you are going up in higher altitudes.

This snapshot is from an older 2003-made Brisk Air 13.5K with the compressor start assist the capacitor added to the fan and compressor's split capacitor. I cleaned the coils and tested the amp draw after the cleaning. This meter has a peak hold mode to it. Plugged into shore power, the power converter was on, and the AC in auto. This is the spike the compressor made for that split-second inrush,


I wanted to know if my 2000I could start that 13.5 AC, so I did this test. This is still the 13.5K AC noted above.

The power converter was shut off, and the Honda 2000I was in run mode (fast speed). I was using battery power to run the AC controls, and the AC fan was already running, and then I kicked on the compressor. The 2000I did start it and ran, but the genny was giving all she had to give. Again, there was no power converter running on AC. This test told me this is not a great setup for boondocking now with my genny, even though it did work. If I had to charge my battery, that extra overhead on the converter most likely would have overpowered the 2000I

The 13.5K Dometic died, and I upgraded in May, 2016 to a Dometic 15K commercial Brisk Air. This is not the standard RV AC; it is built much better; food trucks use these etc. Here is the name tag on this AC. It is a 479 series AC. The new Brisk Air II commercial replaced this 479 series, and, in my view, it is not as good, but that is a different story.


I installed the Micro Air three weeks ago and redid some genny tests using this 15K commercial AC unit. Here are the results.

This 15K AC does not use the 2nd compressor assist capacitor. It only used the single split capacitor for the fan and compressor. The motor is efficient enough not to need the extra boost.

Here is the amp draw of my Progressive Dynamics power converter hooked to 2, 100% SOC grp 27 batteries. Not much, 0.62 steady amps; I'm showing this as this shows up in the amp meter readings. The AC unit is not on yet, nor is any other AC device in the camper.


Here is the Honda genny when I tested powering the camper


Here is the Micro Air upgrade,


I did the five start tests the Micro Air needs to teach the unit on power loads on shore power; then I converted to the genny for the next tests that may help you. The genny is in ECO mode during these tests and will respond as the power load changes.

The power converter load of 0.62 A, the fan running, and the compressor running on the 2000I were 11.6 Amps steady.


Now to the compressor spike with the Micro Air. Let's compare the 37.04 amps spike on the old 13.5 across-the-line compressor start to the Micro Air start spike on the 15K commercial unit with the fan and 0.62 amp power converter running on the Fluke amp probe, 19.3 amp peak.


Here is the Micro Air readout stating 18.0 amps (I bought the blue tooth version to see this on my phone). Note: this is only the micro air spike; the Fluke has the power converter overhead included.


This is a video of the Fluke test with the genny running, the power converter running, the fan on auto, and the compressor kicking on and then constantly running. This video links to my Flickr photo site, where the video is stored. Once on the site, double-click it, and the video should start
https://www.flickr.com/photos/camper-johnb/52834495337/in/album-72177720307672421/

Adding the Micro Air, my 2000I will run the 15K Dometic commercial unit with the power converter only drawing 0.62 amps. I can tell by the sound of the genny it is more speed than the normal ECO mode, but it is not wide open. The Honda is modulating the speed to match the load. When we boondock and charge batteries off the genny when the wife runs the microwave, that uses all this 2000I has. The Honda ramps up to wide open until the microwave drops out of full power, then back up the next full power burst. The AC unit with the Micro Air works better than the microwave.

In my situation, at lower elevations, I have a working situation, but... there is always one of those buts... the power converter; if my batteries are down to 50% and I'm recharging them, the power load from the PD converter will go up, and pending how high that goes, I can run out of the generator. The point is, yes, a Micro Air can run a 15K AC unit at lower elevations, but don't forget what the power converter will be using.

When I bought my Honda 2000I years ago, they did not have the 2200 version available, and I convinced myself I did not need AC where we boondock. Well, times change, and so does where we boondock. I sense a Honda companion generator in my future or an upgrade to a 3000I unit.

I hope the data helps you with your solar recharge etc. I have not made the solar leap yet; we camp under many trees on the east coast when we boondock. When we head west a lot, I'll rethink the solar.

John

Nice info.

[MNRon]

S/w - software, f/w - firmware, h/w - hardware

I have had load support on and Magnum has kicked out genny and only run from batteries as genny voltage dropped too much. Then it won’t let genny back in because same happens each cycle.

I have not seriously throttled input current though (ie - 50% of genny capability or less), this *might* prevent genny voltage from dipping too much? I’ll give that a try next time in this situation. If that doesn’t solve it then I’m probably limited to either wiring in an inverter bypass, or changing to a more robust generator (Honda’s seem to support voltage much better than my Westinghouse, and Honda is coming out with fuel injected models - $$)

[pianotuna]

MNRon wrote:
Hi Don.

Yes, I also have the MSH3012RV version 1.9, along with a BMK and ME-ARC, no solar. My parameters are set similar to what Itinerant1 posted other than LBCO of 11.5v and VAC dropout =60VAC.

Wish I could resolve genny/inverter issue with s/w or f/w but suspect I might need to ultimately resort to a h/w solution (be it bypass, or a more robust genny). We’ll see, I seem to be iterating ~annually when it’s HOT outside, and then ignoring it until the next time…

Have you tried turning on load support? My generator does 23 amps, so I set the Magnum to limit draw to 23, and I use load support when running the roof air.

If I only have a 15 amps shore power, I limit demand to 13 amps. I do this because often I have no access to the shore power breaker. That way I don't loose shore power. It does eventually "fall over" when the battery bank becomes depleted--and then even though it is set at 13--the breaker blows.

I don't understand s/w and f/w

[JBarca]

StirCrazy wrote:
Hi, just looking for input from people that have them on their effectiveness. I am thinking of getting a portable genny for the 5th wheel for those times that I need an AC and don't have power. I have a 15000BTU dometic AC, and I must figure out what size genny I need also.

As some of you know I personally hate the noise they make, so it must be quiet and really won't be used for anything else as my solar can do everything else. the other issue I have is there has only been 4 days in the last 5 years of camping where I needed an AC when I was boondocking, so I am really torn weather I need a genny or just see what it would take to be able to run on solar, but I think it's too tall of an order for solar.

Hi,

You might have sorted out your issue already, but I'll add this to help the cause. I just added a Micro Air to a Domeitc 15K commercial AC, and I have some data to share.

I have an older Honda 2000I genny. It is a good genny and served me well. I am sharing the data from the genny and camper working at about 500 ft elevation in central OH. So take this into account if you are going up in higher altitudes.

This snapshot is from an older 2003-made Brisk Air 13.5K with the compressor start assist the capacitor added to the fan and compressor's split capacitor. I cleaned the coils and tested the amp draw after the cleaning. This meter has a peak hold mode to it. Plugged into shore power, the power converter was on, and the AC in auto. This is the spike the compressor made for that split-second inrush,


I wanted to know if my 2000I could start that 13.5 AC, so I did this test. This is still the 13.5K AC noted above.

The power converter was shut off, and the Honda 2000I was in run mode (fast speed). I was using battery power to run the AC controls, and the AC fan was already running, and then I kicked on the compressor. The 2000I did start it and ran, but the genny was giving all she had to give. Again, there was no power converter running on AC. This test told me this is not a great setup for boondocking now with my genny, even though it did work. If I had to charge my battery, that extra overhead on the converter most likely would have overpowered the 2000I

The 13.5K Dometic died, and I upgraded in May, 2016 to a Dometic 15K commercial Brisk Air. This is not the standard RV AC; it is built much better; food trucks use these etc. Here is the name tag on this AC. It is a 479 series AC. The new Brisk Air II commercial replaced this 479 series, and, in my view, it is not as good, but that is a different story.


I installed the Micro Air three weeks ago and redid some genny tests using this 15K commercial AC unit. Here are the results.

This 15K AC does not use the 2nd compressor assist capacitor. It only used the single split capacitor for the fan and compressor. The motor is efficient enough not to need the extra boost.

Here is the amp draw of my Progressive Dynamics power converter hooked to 2, 100% SOC grp 27 batteries. Not much, 0.62 steady amps; I'm showing this as this shows up in the amp meter readings. The AC unit is not on yet, nor is any other AC device in the camper.


Here is the Honda genny when I tested powering the camper


Here is the Micro Air upgrade,


I did the five start tests the Micro Air needs to teach the unit on power loads on shore power; then I converted to the genny for the next tests that may help you. The genny is in ECO mode during these tests and will respond as the power load changes.

The power converter load of 0.62 A, the fan running, and the compressor running on the 2000I were 11.6 Amps steady.


Now to the compressor spike with the Micro Air. Let's compare the 37.04 amps spike on the old 13.5 across-the-line compressor start to the Micro Air start spike on the 15K commercial unit with the fan and 0.62 amp power converter running on the Fluke amp probe, 19.3 amp peak.


Here is the Micro Air readout stating 18.0 amps (I bought the blue tooth version to see this on my phone). Note: this is only the micro air spike; the Fluke has the power converter overhead included.


This is a video of the Fluke test with the genny running, the power converter running, the fan on auto, and the compressor kicking on and then constantly running. This video links to my Flickr photo site, where the video is stored. Once on the site, double-click it, and the video should start
https://www.flickr.com/photos/camper-johnb/52834495337/in/album-72177720307672421/

Adding the Micro Air, my 2000I will run the 15K Dometic commercial unit with the power converter only drawing 0.62 amps. I can tell by the sound of the genny it is more speed than the normal ECO mode, but it is not wide open. The Honda is modulating the speed to match the load. When we boondock and charge batteries off the genny when the wife runs the microwave, that uses all this 2000I has. The Honda ramps up to wide open until the microwave drops out of full power, then back up the next full power burst. The AC unit with the Micro Air works better than the microwave.

In my situation, at lower elevations, I have a working situation, but... there is always one of those buts... the power converter; if my batteries are down to 50% and I'm recharging them, the power load from the PD converter will go up, and pending how high that goes, I can run out of the generator. The point is, yes, a Micro Air can run a 15K AC unit at lower elevations, but don't forget what the power converter will be using.

When I bought my Honda 2000I years ago, they did not have the 2200 version available, and I convinced myself I did not need AC where we boondock. Well, times change, and so does where we boondock. I sense a Honda companion generator in my future or an upgrade to a 3000I unit.

I hope the data helps you with your solar recharge etc. I have not made the solar leap yet; we camp under many trees on the east coast when we boondock. When we head west a lot, I'll rethink the solar.

John

[MNRon]

Hi Don.

Yes, I also have the MSH3012RV version 1.9, along with a BMK and ME-ARC, no solar. My parameters are set similar to what Itinerant1 posted other than LBCO of 11.5v and VAC dropout =60VAC.

Wish I could resolve genny/inverter issue with s/w or f/w but suspect I might need to ultimately resort to a h/w solution (be it bypass, or a more robust genny). We’ll see, I seem to be iterating ~annually when it’s HOT outside, and then ignoring it until the next time…

[pianotuna]

TurnThePage wrote:
Agreed! I'm in the middle of a huge solar/lifpo4 upgrade and am seriously leaning toward a Victron 3000 watt inverter. Great info here!

I wish I had gone with Vitron for the inverter charger instead of the Magnum. So here is another volt for the big V.

[pianotuna]

MNRon wrote:
Cptnvideo - as 3Tons said, better than I did, my Magnum sees the genny as a defective power source because of the milliseconds of voltage droop when it becomes loaded. I have started the ACs on batteries and hoped the genny would take over. Unfortunately the Magnum takes a few second ms to qualify the new source, then when it tries to bring it in the genny voltage drops instantaneously and the Magnum kicks it out. If I run into this next time I might try limiting genny power to 15A, or 10A etc to see if that allows it to provide most of the power without significantly dropping. We’ll see.

3Tons - thanks, I’ve thought about just putting a Magnum bypass in to allow direct running of AC from genny. I think your solution is more elegant. Still I haven’t given up with futzing with current hardware instead of adding more…. Frankly not sure if I had spent more on a Honda I might not have been aware of this idiosyncrasy. Not sure if I’ll keep messing around or maybe make a hardware change…

Hi MNRon,

I built my system so I can bypass the Magnum. The one I have is the 3012, which defacto with load support set to on has an autotransformer in it. Load support is Not voltage support, unfortunately.

Which Magnum do you have? Do you have the remote control for it?

[Cptnvideo]

GoPower says they will have monitor and control of both lines. But they can't say when. It is just plain stupid to only have monitor and control of just one line of a 50 amp rv for load sharing.
I have Victron mppt, should have also gone with Victron for the inverter.

[3_tons]

StirCrazy wrote:
Nice discussion guys, I don't have the fancy inverter/charger that you guys do so the side shoots in the discussion are remarkably interesting to me as I may go that way in the future.

Well, my ProSine 2.0 is a pass-thru type inverter, though it’s not of the ‘load-sharing’ (hybrid) variety…

However, based on comments from other’s, it appears that either type will intervene on suspect power (as they should!), of which can begin this nagging to-and-fro genny-inverter cycling…

3 tons

[TurnThePage]

Agreed! I'm in the middle of a huge solar/lifpo4 upgrade and am seriously leaning toward a Victron 3000 watt inverter. Great info here!

[StirCrazy]

Nice discussion guys, I don't have the fancy inverter/charger that you guys do so the side shoots in the discussion are remarkably interesting to me as I may go that way in the future.