LT Tire Replacements - All season

[JBarca]

Time for new tires. Trying to find someone in the same weight range or that has been running their chosen brands close in the weight range listed below.

Currently using. BFG Commercial TA's LT225/75R16 LR E. 2,680# @ 80 psi. Now 5 1/2 years old.

Axles: 5,000# springs are the limiting factor.
Trailer GVWR: 10,000# Camper loaded: 9,920# GVW
Largest loaded axle: 4,400# aligned with 5,360# of tires/axle

Needs: I need/want to be able to run winter (below freezing) and summer temperatures on the same tires.

I have had 2 failures this year. This might be from 2 reasons:

1. It is not beyond impossible I ran into a patch potholes. The tires could have been damaged internally and manifested itself to the recent failures.

2. These current failed tires were also potentially made in the same BFG plant they had the recall on the next size from mine during 2012 when I put mine on. This may or may not have to do with the recent failures. BFG Recall

Mine look like this video. Tire shop showing recalled tires

I have a TPM system (Truck Systems TST) and the running pressures at 60 mph were 90psi and 89F stem temperatures when the failures occurred.

I'm not blaming the tires at this point, I want the best LT option within reason to replace them with.

New replacement choices I have found.

Michelin XPS Ribs: They are only a summer tire
Bridgestone Duravis R250: They are only a summer tire.

The above both have been reported to give excellent service however I need all season.

Bridgestone Duravis R238: Duravis R238 These appear to be an option as they are all season and similar tread as the R250's

Firestone Transforce HT: These appear to be an option, maybe not as heavy duty as the Duravis R238's Transforce HT

BFG Commercial TA 2: An upgraded version with "Cool Wedge shoulder insert" from what I already have. BFG Commercial TA 2's

BFG has had now 2 recalls in the Commercial TA's including the new 2 version. I linked 2012 one above and here is the 2015 recall. https://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/safety-recall.page

With that, I'm not real high on another set of BFG Commercial TA's.

Anyone with the same size, running all season tires? and other brands in the same or slightly higher weight range? Again need all season options.

I already went through the ST to LT upgrade. See here for wheel weights etc. ST225/75R15 to LT225/75R16 Conversion

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

jaycocamprs wrote:
We have the R250's in the LT235/85R16. They have most definitely been run below 45 degrees, even a few times approaching 20 degrees. I never knew to worry about it, and haven’t seen any ill effect. We have about 9000# on 2 6000# axles with about 2800# on the pin, just under 12000# total. So the load is on average just under 75% of max.
The prior set of tires were BFG Commercial TA's. They were bought in August of 09 when I upgraded our last trailer from 15” ST tires to 16” LT tires. 2 Years later we bought the Mountaineer and I had the tires switched. In early 2013 I saw a bulge in 1 tire and replaced all 4 with the Bridgestone R250's.
Did you remount the tires on the same side of the trailer, so the direction of rotation was the same?

Hi jaycocampers,

Thanks for the response. Seems your upgrade from 15" ST's to 16" LT's is similar to mine along with the BFG's. I had 3 failed Denman ST failures for the start of tread separation which then drove me to the BFG LT's. Now the BFG's had the same issue just it took longer to get to this place.

Good to hear your R250's and low temps have worked out well. This is good to hear. I also wondered about hydroplaning regardless of temp. I'm assuming the deep grooves lets the water fly out the back as there is no sips on the outer ribs. And I have not heard of this being an issue but did not ask all the XPS ribs folks or the R250 folks.

I have now bought 5 new R2328's and just finished mounting them. Still have to put them on the camper, have to repair the body damage from the flying threads on the 2 blowouts first. I'm looking forward to feeling the difference of the R238's. That tire is in a different league altogether then the BFG's and I'm sure the cost shows it too...

I will post some info soon on what I received from calls to Bridgestone tech service on the R238's as they are now the replacement for the already discontinued R250's. Since the R238's are all season and I can't get the R250's other then in leftover dealer stock, it sort of removed the cold weather issue.

Thanks

John

[jaycocamprs]

We have the R250's in the LT235/85R16. They have most definitely been run below 45 degrees, even a few times approaching 20 degrees. I never knew to worry about it, and haven’t seen any ill effect. We have about 9000# on 2 6000# axles with about 2800# on the pin, just under 12000# total. So the load is on average just under 75% of max.
The prior set of tires were BFG Commercial TA's. They were bought in August of 09 when I upgraded our last trailer from 15” ST tires to 16” LT tires. 2 Years later we bought the Mountaineer and I had the tires switched. In early 2013 I saw a bulge in 1 tire and replaced all 4 with the Bridgestone R250's.
Did you remount the tires on the same side of the trailer, so the direction of rotation was the same?

[JBarca]

JIMNLIN wrote:
The Bridgestone R-238 I saw on their websites says they come in 17.5" and 19.5" sizes. IMO too much tire for a 5.2k 6 lug axle.

The 16" and some 17" show up here https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/duravis-r238

You must of been looking at the "Commercial Truck and Bus" site, here https://commercial.bridgestone.com/en-us/truck-and-bus/product/r238

And yes you are correct, on that T & B site they only start with 17.5" on that site, no 16's.

I agree with your BFG comments on the recall. I'm glad you have had a positive outcome on your BFG's. We need more good options to pick from.

Thanks

John

[JIMNLIN]

The Bridgestone R-238 I saw on their websites says they come in 17.5" and 19.5" sizes. IMO too much tire for a 5.2k 6 lug axle.

For more input on Michelin's recall on the BFG Commercial T/A and the same sister tire Uniroyal HD-H see safecar tire complaints website at odi.nhtsa.gov/owners.
Most complaints run about the same scenario and all about the same time frame (2012-2014).
JMO but Michelin should have included all 16"/18" tire sizes in their recall.' I ran several sets of the Commercial T/A on my equipment trailers prior to the time frame they started shedding treads. Ran two sets on the 11200 lb 5ers for 50k and 55k each with no issues on any of them.

It would be interesting to know what suddenly changed (materials or mfg processes) to make them faulty.

[JBarca]

Hi Folks,

I truly appreciate all the responses. Good discussion.

To comment on some of the suggestions so far:

Going back to an ST tire. That is not for me on this large of a camper. I have already had 3 ST failures before the LT's came. Hopefully the new ST tires being out there now have improved from those of the past. There are still a lot of campers that need a dependable tire. And education to the owners on how to care for their tires and not overload them. And to the camper manufacturers to size the running gear & tires to the way their customer uses the camper.

Going to a Michelin LTX LT tire on a trailer. That also is not for me from past towing experience on LTX. I had a run in with the original LTX tire before all the redesigns where the soft sideways of the LTX did not do well on my 2003 K2500 Suburban.

Between the strange tread wear and the soft side wall, they are not on my towing list. Truck or camper. The LTX, even the LT's are close to if not the softest sidewall tires there are. That is a feature to help them ride better. And I use them on my non towing SUV's, just not any more on a towing truck. Yes, I have few camping buddies using them, they have a large diesel engine and can air them up to 70psi were a gasser 3/4 ton truck only needs 50 to 55 psi. They swear by the LTX while I'm swearing at them... Not all rigs can use the same setup.

At the moment I am leaning towards the Bridgestone Duravis R238's. Friday I will call Bridgestone tech service and get some questions I have hopefully answered so I can get them and get on with camping.

If anyone has something to add or knows of their own BFG Commercial TA's failures, please add to the discussion.

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

BenK wrote:
IMHO...always wonder about ST trailer tires and even higher class LT tires on trailers that are close to published axle limits/ratings

snip..
First they are normally aired up to their max ALL the time *AND* most are at max loading (at limits/ratings)

They have a less compliant suspension, generally, and no shocks, etc, etc. So they must 'take it' while the TV has a more compliant suspension (ride quality) that takes much off of its tires when striking something going 65MPH. Some folks do improve their trailer suspension, but a rarity

Hi Ben,

I totally agree with you that a tandem axle setup is worse on a tire then on a truck for all the reasons you listed. You can see your leaving rubber on a concrete road, just look behind when your turning the trailer.

In 2012 I did a lot of digging to try and find out what 3 of my ST trailer tires still made in north america at the time failed due to detachment and I had excess load capacity then too. I caught all 3 before they blew by good fortune of just looking.

The LT's required a jump from 15" tires to 16" to get the load capacity I needed and I ended up with some more load capacity above the original ST's.

From my 2012 loading, see here as FYI, ST225/75R15 to LT225/75R16 Conversion

The BFG LT's had:

Front axle: 22% or 480# more tire capacity then the 2 wheel weights

Rear axle: 26% or 702# more tire capacity then the 2 wheel weights

Ohio_Engineer (Roger) has stated before, the tandem axle setup needs more reserve capacity due to the side turning. And others in the industry are now starting to preach this too. It is a need. Just wish the camper mfg's would all get on board with it.

In my case you can see I had excess capacity, yet I still had failures in the LT's

I added shocks and a rubber equalizer a long time ago and the LT's had them since day 1. See here


With only 12,160 miles on them, 5.5 years, the tires failed. While some may say 5 years is a limit, it is a guideline. These LT's where off the camper for most of the last 6 months, unloaded sitting in the barn while I worked on the camper. Then come the first campout of the year on a 175 mile destination they are blowing out like crazy.

There may be a manufacturing defect in them, I do not really know. In July 2012 just after I bought mine there was a recall on this type of tire and wheel diameter, just mine was one size smaller in width. Here is the recall notice : http://www.tiresafetygroup.com/TSG-Recalled-Tire/12T019000/RCMN-12T019-6789--07__31_2012.pdf

And a video from 2013 from one tire dealer showing what to look for on these BFG's. It sure looks like the same failure I had. BFG Recall Video by dealer

I may never know what went wrong, me being me... I want to learn and know so if I'm doing something wrong I can fix it. If it is a manufacturing defect that I happened to land into, well OK that is an answer at least and not a cause I did. I needed to change the tires anyway this year so the tire cost is not an issue, but the damage it beat up on the camper is a headache to fix.

All good points you brought up. Thanks for sharing, Good discussion.

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

Ohio_Engineer wrote:


John, The BS R250 is a "Commercial" grade steel body tire. As such I would expect it to be more durable than a more basic "consumer" grade tire. I have heard good things about the 250 from RV owners.
The BS R238 is a "newer" design (unusual for BS to go down in model number) It may have some design improvements in it over the 250 but I do not have access to the actual specification so just a reasonable guess.

I agree with the others about questioning the need for a serious All-Season tire. They generally have a deeper tread which might generate more heat.

Your pictures are definitely a Belt/Tread separation. Surprised your "free spin" inspection didn't allow you to identify the potential for problems before the tire came apart. IMO this is unusual.

Are your tire loads still about the same as in 2012? Still running 80 psi cold? Have you confirmed gauge accuracy? If +/- 2 psi you are good. In my blog I did a TPM accuracy test a few weeks ago you may want to review but IMO the TPM sensors were in acceptable range.

While TPM are really designed just to warn of pressure loss they can be used to confirm CIP too as long as you know the accuracy of your sensors.

Roger Marble, Tire Desigh Engineer (Ret)

Thanks Roger,

Some comments to your questions:

I had all 4 tires off for the last 3 months doing some frame repairs over the winter. I did not notice any out of roundness when taking them off or putting them back on. I was admiring how great the tread looked even.

I did look up the mileage today, 12,160 miles since I installed them in July 2012.

I always run that at 80psi cold.

Weights, my weights from 2012 did increase by 100# from last year to this year. I did some frame repairs and the 100# is spread between the left and right side of the camper. Once I get sound tires back on I will recheck the weights by cat scale to make sure something else did not creep in.

The TPM reads about 1 to 2 psi low compared to my compressor fill gage air chuck. The gage is a bourdon tube gage and it compared to my larger truck sliding gage air chuck. So between all 3 devices I have including the TPM I am within the +/- 2psi

This weekend I will start the process of preparing for new tires. I will put the camper up on jack stands and do a spin test to see if the remaining tires have any wobble and run out.

I will also start taking them off the rims to have look inside all the tires for closer inspection. My older tire machine works well on these steel trailer wheels so I can do this looking myself.

This Friday Bridgestone tech service folks are supposed to be back in the office. I will call them and talk about the R250 and the R238 and report back. Right now I'm leaning towards the R238. There is a small cost savings going R238 but it gives me a hopefully a slight advantage in colder wet conditions then it was worth it. During a trailer braking situation loosing any slip is not a good thing and the R238 can hopefully help over the R250's.

Thanks

John

[Grit_dog]

JBarca don’t believe everything you hear. 45deg limitation on tire warranty??? That’s laughable. Get some tires and go camping, summer or winter. You had old tires. They blew out. We’ve all had it happen. Hence the strong reccomendations for early replacement of trailer tires.
There is a phenomenon with trailer tires that render them time bombs. Just how it is.....

[BenK]

IMHO...always wonder about ST trailer tires and even higher class LT tires on trailers that are close to published axle limits/ratings

Some have argued no different than that same tire on a TV, but most TV's are not at their axle limits/ratings, while aired up to max sidewall PSI

Plus, trailers experience a different path & conditions than TV's...

First they are normally aired up to their max ALL the time *AND* most are at max loading (at limits/ratings)

They have a less compliant suspension, generally, and no shocks, etc, etc. So they must 'take it' while the TV has a more compliant suspension (ride quality) that takes much off of its tires when striking something going 65MPH. Some folks do improve their trailer suspension, but a rarity

They see more squirm than TV's while cutting tight turns...like jack knifing to jockey into a tight spot. Ditto out on the road. While TV's have a steer axle that takes that sidewall stress away. Plus trailer axles are very close together compared to a TV's two axles...another 'takes away' that side wall squirm

An example of this trailer tire squirm are the reports that commercial tires that do NOT have a safety bead...comes off its tapered bead to lose air. that side loaded, squirm while maneuvering does that. While lower class tires have that safety bead to keep it on

Since most trailers take a smaller radius than the TV, they sit stuff that the TV misses.

Just some IMHO thoughts on this matter...

[Ohio_Engineer]

JBarca wrote:
Time for new tires. Trying to find someone in the same weight range or that has been running their chosen brands close in the weight range listed below.

Currently using. BFG Commercial TA's LT225/75R16 LR E. 2,680# @ 80 psi. Now 5 1/2 years old.

Axles: 5,000# springs are the limiting factor.
Trailer GVWR: 10,000# Camper loaded: 9,920# GVW
Largest loaded axle: 4,400# aligned with 5,360# of tires/axle

Needs: I need/want to be able to run winter (below freezing) and summer temperatures on the same tires.

I have had 2 failures this year. This might be from 2 reasons:

1. It is not beyond impossible I ran into a patch potholes. The tires could have been damaged internally and manifested itself to the recent failures.

2. These current failed tires were also potentially made in the same BFG plant they had the recall on the next size from mine during 2012 when I put mine on. This may or may not have to do with the recent failures. BFG Recall

Mine look like this video. Tire shop showing recalled tires

I have a TPM system (Truck Systems TST) and the running pressures at 60 mph were 90psi and 89F stem temperatures when the failures occurred.

I'm not blaming the tires at this point, I want the best LT option within reason to replace them with.

New replacement choices I have found.

Michelin XPS Ribs: They are only a summer tire
Bridgestone Duravis R250: They are only a summer tire.

The above both have been reported to give excellent service however I need all season.

Bridgestone Duravis R238: Duravis R238 These appear to be an option as they are all season and similar tread as the R250's

Firestone Transforce HT: These appear to be an option, maybe not as heavy duty as the Duravis R238's Transforce HT

BFG Commercial TA 2: An upgraded version with "Cool Wedge shoulder insert" from what I already have. BFG Commercial TA 2's

BFG has had now 2 recalls in the Commercial TA's including the new 2 version. I linked 2012 one above and here is the 2015 recall. https://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/safety-recall.page

With that, I'm not real high on another set of BFG Commercial TA's.

Anyone with the same size, running all season tires? and other brands in the same or slightly higher weight range? Again need all season options.

I already went through the ST to LT upgrade. See here for wheel weights etc. ST225/75R15 to LT225/75R16 Conversion

Thanks

John

John, The BS R250 is a "Commercial" grade steel body tire. As such I would expect it to be more durable than a more basic "consumer" grade tire. I have heard good things about the 250 from RV owners.
The BS R238 is a "newer" design (unusual for BS to go down in model number) It may have some design improvements in it over the 250 but I do not have access to the actual specification so just a reasonable guess.

I agree with the others about questioning the need for a serious All-Season tire. They generally have a deeper tread which might generate more heat.

Your pictures are definitely a Belt/Tread separation. Surprised your "free spin" inspection didn't allow you to identify the potential for problems before the tire came apart. IMO this is unusual.

Are your tire loads still about the same as in 2012? Still running 80 psi cold? Have you confirmed gauge accuracy? If +/- 2 psi you are good. In my blog I did a TPM accuracy test a few weeks ago you may want to review but IMO the TPM sensors were in acceptable range.

While TPM are really designed just to warn of pressure loss they can be used to confirm CIP too as long as you know the accuracy of your sensors.

Roger Marble, Tire Desigh Engineer (Ret)

[theoldwizard1]

I am a Michelin snob. Michelin Defender LTX make a LT225/75R16 LR E. The rest of the specs are the same as your BFG. The Defender LX have a 6 year/70,000 warranty versus the Michelin Rib 5 year/60,000 mile warranty.

They are $70 off for a set of 4 at Costco until 5/13/2018. Sams will have similar pricing.

[MFL]

I know you are asking/talking about LT tires, but just throwing this out. Take a look at Provider STs, I know e-trailer carries them, and has tread pics, info, etc. They came on my 2012 from factory, and I'm still running them. They are well siped, and speed rated to 81 mph. They are nylon wrapped for strength, and cooler running. I'm still running them, good wear, no issues. They have gotten good reviews since about 2010. Since they were designed for commercial hauling, they should work for all temps.

Jerry

[JBarca]

To some of the questions on the tire failures, here is a top line version. I can have more pics later.

A recap from my post above:

JBarca wrote:
I have had 2 failures this year. This might be from 2 reasons:

1. It is not beyond impossible I ran into a patch of potholes. The tires could have been damaged internally and manifested itself to the recent failures.

2. These current failed tires were also potentially made in the same BFG plant they had the recall on the next size from mine during 2012 when I put mine on. This may or may not have to do with the recent failures. BFG Recall

Mine look like this video. Tire shop showing recalled tires

I have a TPM system (Truck Systems TST) and the running pressures at 60 mph were 90psi and 89F stem temperatures when the failures occurred.

Some more details and pics. This was our first campout this year. A 150 mile trip one way last Friday. I have a TPM and all tires were at 80psi cold before we left.

At 100 miles into the trip, the right rear tire blew out. I only tow at 60 mph as a norm. May coast up to 65 and back down but that is it. The wind was surgeing a lot. I could tell the whole rig wiggled from the wind blasts. The tires in the non sun side of the camper where 3 deg F warmer then the sun side while towing. I thought that was odd but the pressure on all 4 was within 1 or 2 psi. Maybe the wind surges created a little more heat in the one side of the camper with more side flex? Don't know only a guess. I do not think that was a cause, more of an observation.

I heard a loud "bang", looked in right mirror and saw a puff of smoke as the tire tread flew off. Never felt it in the truck. A few seconds later the TPM went off. After limping about 1,000 feet we pulled off the side of the interstate and found this. The flying tread did some good damage to the camper and it beat up the metal valve stem on the front tire creating a leak. Even beat off the grease cap on the rear axle. After fiddling with the valve stem on the front tire I could shut up the tire leak which was now down to 60psi. I pumped it up to 80psi before moving the camper another 1,000 ft to the exit.



You can see here, the entire outer tread separated from the tire and blew off. A large sidewall split went from the OD to the bead.


And the tire on the ground after putting the spare on.


Also to note, we stopped for fuel and lug nut tightening on all tires 10 minutes before this tire blew out. Never noticed anything wrong and I was right at the tire.

I found a tire shop and bought one Firestone Transforce HT LT to replace the blown one and took the right front tire off and put it in the truck. Put the new tire on the front location as this tire took an instant overload and was leaking down before I could pull off and did not want to press my luck. Then we went to camp.

Had a great weekend campout with friends and started heading back home yesterday. At approx 100 miles into the trip, the second one blew out on the left front side. This was about 20 minutes after a gas stop. Same pattern, blew the entire tread off and a large rip in the sidewall all the way to the bead.

Sitting on the side of the interstate dealing with it.






The first blow out I left at the tire dealer. I forgot to grab it as I wanted to talk to my tire buddy on this. The second one I still have here in the barn.

More on this as I start demounting all of them once I get new replacements to put on.

These failed with what looked like the recall in 2012 showed however my tire size was not in the recall.

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

Thank you all. I will start to answer some of your questions. Will have to come back for more later. Running low on time now.

The winter/summer tire ratings. It appears by the responses some have used the XPS Rib tire in a winter setting and had no adverse effects. With so much being printed about only using this as a summer tire, I contacted Michelin on this to confirm the XPS Rib can be used in a trailer application and for limited use below 32F.

I made it past the trailer application. With my weights, axle ratings, GVWR and tire size, using the XPS Rib in a trailer application is approved. (as long as the trailer manufacturer is not stating ST tires only) In my case my trailer manufacturer is out of business and I have no placard stating not to use LT tires.

Temperature ratings. Here I ran into issues. The technician had to confirm with their supervisor on this. The XPS has a low end use temperature rating of 45F. They cannot approve any application when used below that rating. I explained this is a trailer situation and not a drive or steering vehicle. The response was if the tire was used in cold enough weather cracking of the tire could occur. They mentioned this may occur at 20F or lower. They also mentioned that the friction will be reduced when used below 45F and they cannot approve the application as the trailer my slide more than normal in the colder weather as the traction grip can be affected.

I asked if I used the tire in a trailer application and if it was used below 45F would this be declared as a miss-application and void any warranty? They responded, that was correct, it would not be warranted.

In our case we do winter camp. We do not go out in snow, but do go out in weather below 45F a fair amount. Actually we would think a winter 45F day is a heat wave. It appears if I wanted to stay within the approved Michelin application and want warranty, using XPS Rib tires is not an approved setup for our use.

I called Bridgestone. Very nice call but no info as of right now. They told me to call a tire dealer for technical info. I explained I wanted the trailer application info direct from the manufacture. They said all their tire technical folks are out until this Friday but could respond then. So this one is on hold for the moment.

However Bridgestone does make both the Duravis R250 Summer and the R238 All season. For some reason the R238 is even cheaper than the R250. So the R238 may be an option. I will "never" wear out the tread on one of these, but I can age out. So needing to go to a R238 all season does not really bother me.

I'll report more on this temp situation as I find it.

Thanks

John