Electric truck - tow vehicle of future ?

[Lessmore]

Interesting article about an electric Class 7 truck .

Begs the question, are electric powered heavy duty pickups...ready for HD towing service... far behind ?

Range right now is somewhat limited, but where will it be in 5, 10, 15 years ?


Maybe the future is closer than we think.


Electric heavy duty truck (Class 7)

[BenK]

Wonder if those who were first adopters of the new fangled clean air mode of transportation faced this...betcha they did...

Gasoline powered vehicles were the fix for air pollution of that day...piles of horse poop in the streets...smelling up the neighborhood/streets...piles of horse poop in the outskirts of most cities...that when dried...became yet another air pollutant when blown back into the city...horse poop dust clouds engulfed many cities and choked people out and about...that was considered and documented as a health hazard...of those days...

Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

Also betcha a horse drawn buggy could out drag those first gasoline driven 'horseless' buggies...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

[Rubiranch]

A good friend of mine who is an electrical engineer sent this to me.

I can only imagine what it would take to charge a fleet of these trucks every night.

The Electric car boondoggle, (copied)
I always wondered why we never saw a cost analysis on what it actually costs to operate an electric car. Now we know why.
At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious. If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.
The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than 3 houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.
This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles ... Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy the **** things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead-end road that it will be presented with an oops and a shrug.
If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following:
Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. Enlightening.
Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors...and he writes...For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000........So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay 3 times as much for a car, that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country.....

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


I would agree that 150 KM would be rare on a daily basis. I think inter city weekend travel is fairly common though. Home for the weekend kinda thing. Where we are those distances are quite often a few hundred kilometres. But I hear ya.

Cheers

That's why most families with an EV keep a second ICE car and limit the electric to local commuting.

One of my neighbours does exactly that as he has to make weekly trips to an area of the province not well covered by DC fast charge.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:


I would agree that 150 KM would be rare on a daily basis. I think inter city weekend travel is fairly common though. Home for the weekend kinda thing. Where we are those distances are quite often a few hundred kilometres. But I hear ya.

Cheers

That's why most families with an EV keep a second ICE car and limit the electric to local commuting.

[transamz9]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Good morning. I brought up the EU to illustrate that people who live in Norway commute or travel to neighbouring countries routinely with both their EV's and ICE vehicles. But, part of this is because of the infrastructure available to them. We are experienced European travellers, speak multiple languages and have the opportunity to speak with EV'ers in Europe...although not so much in Nowray. And yes, there are a ton of ICE vehicles still on the road in Norway but of course this only makes sense as EV's are not the panacea to every driving need...or at least not in their present form. The future will bring changes of course.

I suggest googling the EU. Norway is not a member

Also given the size and location of population centers of Norway, I doubt you are seeing many people commute to other countries. As an example, Oslo to the nearest boarder is about 45miles. Assuming they are commuting to jobs in major cities, it's at least another 50 miles from the border.

The whole idea that people are using EV's to commute to other countries from Norway doesn't hold up to even modest inspection.

Yes I am aware of Norways status in the European community and marketplace and the Schengen agreement. Commuting 150 KM miles is not fun but not that unusual as well. I am not sure I follow. Agreed that normal commutes are usually shorter...at least for us although I used to do a 400 km weekly commute. That sucked.

I'm not sure you are aware. 150km each way commute is unusual no matter where you live. While there are people who do it, statistically, it's so rare as to be irrelevant to the conversation.

In the construction world it is very common to commute 100-150 miles one way a day. We put 50,000+ miles a year on most of our trucks. A lot of our field guys commute 100 miles one way to work depending on where a job is and where they live. These are there personal vehicles. They have the option of staying in hotels but the majority of them will drive 200+ miles round trip to not stay away from their families.

I did a job a few years ago that I was running 310 miles round trip commuting and working 9hr days. Company truck of course.

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Good morning. I brought up the EU to illustrate that people who live in Norway commute or travel to neighbouring countries routinely with both their EV's and ICE vehicles. But, part of this is because of the infrastructure available to them. We are experienced European travellers, speak multiple languages and have the opportunity to speak with EV'ers in Europe...although not so much in Nowray. And yes, there are a ton of ICE vehicles still on the road in Norway but of course this only makes sense as EV's are not the panacea to every driving need...or at least not in their present form. The future will bring changes of course.

I suggest googling the EU. Norway is not a member

Also given the size and location of population centers of Norway, I doubt you are seeing many people commute to other countries. As an example, Oslo to the nearest boarder is about 45miles. Assuming they are commuting to jobs in major cities, it's at least another 50 miles from the border.

The whole idea that people are using EV's to commute to other countries from Norway doesn't hold up to even modest inspection.

Yes I am aware of Norways status in the European community and marketplace and the Schengen agreement. Commuting 150 KM miles is not fun but not that unusual as well. I am not sure I follow. Agreed that normal commutes are usually shorter...at least for us although I used to do a 400 km weekly commute. That sucked.

I'm not sure you are aware. 150km each way commute is unusual no matter where you live. While there are people who do it, statistically, it's so rare as to be irrelevant to the conversation.

I would agree that 150 KM would be rare on a daily basis. I think inter city weekend travel is fairly common though. Home for the weekend kinda thing. Where we are those distances are quite often a few hundred kilometres. But I hear ya.

Cheers

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Good morning. I brought up the EU to illustrate that people who live in Norway commute or travel to neighbouring countries routinely with both their EV's and ICE vehicles. But, part of this is because of the infrastructure available to them. We are experienced European travellers, speak multiple languages and have the opportunity to speak with EV'ers in Europe...although not so much in Nowray. And yes, there are a ton of ICE vehicles still on the road in Norway but of course this only makes sense as EV's are not the panacea to every driving need...or at least not in their present form. The future will bring changes of course.

I suggest googling the EU. Norway is not a member

Also given the size and location of population centers of Norway, I doubt you are seeing many people commute to other countries. As an example, Oslo to the nearest boarder is about 45miles. Assuming they are commuting to jobs in major cities, it's at least another 50 miles from the border.

The whole idea that people are using EV's to commute to other countries from Norway doesn't hold up to even modest inspection.

Yes I am aware of Norways status in the European community and marketplace and the Schengen agreement. Commuting 150 KM miles is not fun but not that unusual as well. I am not sure I follow. Agreed that normal commutes are usually shorter...at least for us although I used to do a 400 km weekly commute. That sucked.

I'm not sure you are aware. 150km each way commute is unusual no matter where you live. While there are people who do it, statistically, it's so rare as to be irrelevant to the conversation.

[time2roll]

mkirsch wrote:
The REAL problem with electric vehicles is range. Unless someone invents a new element, Lithium is the top of the food chain as far as battery capacity goes. We've reached the limits of battery technology. The only way to get more range is to pack in more batteries, which means more weight.

While progress seems slow I do not believe we have hit the wall on battery density or cost.
Nano technology is just getting started. This is not the same as software technology... takes more time.

Gas/diesel will always seem easier as long as we are allowed to pollute the air we breathe. If you had to carry your air and recapture all fumes for processing gas/diesel would be unworkable also.

[John___Angela]

Acdii wrote:
Drawbacks of Lithium batteries used.


Dozens of reports are available on the ecological impact of lithium mining. Unfortunately, many of them are influenced by the perspective of the organizations or authors releasing them. Reducing the available information to studies carried out by government bodies and research institutes around the world, a picture emerges nonetheless:

Elemental lithium is flammable and very reactive. In nature, lithium occurs in compounded forms such as lithium carbonate requiring chemical processing to be made usable.
Lithium is typically found in salt flats in areas where water is scarce. The mining process of lithium uses large amounts of water. Therefore, on top of water contamination as a result of its use, depletion or transportation costs are issues to be dealt with. Depletion results in less available water for local populations, flora and fauna.
Toxic chemicals are used for leaching purposes, chemicals requiring waste treatment. There are widespread concerns of improper handling and spills, like in other mining operations around the world.
The recovery rate of lithium ion batteries, even in first world countries, is in the single digit percent range. Most batteries end up in landfill.
In a 2013 report, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) points out that nickel and cobalt, both also used in the production of lithium ion batteries, represent significant additional environmental risks.

A 2012 study titled “Science for Environment Policy” published by the European Union compares lithium ion batteries to other types of batteries available (lead-acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel-metal-hydride and sodium sulphur). It concludes that lithium ion batteries have the largest impact on metal depletion, suggesting that recycling is complicated. Lithium ion batteries are also, together with nickel-metal-hydride batteries, the most energy consuming technologies using the equivalent of 1.6kg of oil per kg of battery produced. They also ranked the worst in greenhouse gas emissions with up to 12.5kg of CO2 equivalent emitted per kg of battery. The authors do point out that “…for a full understanding of life cycle impacts, further aspects of battery use need to be considered, such as length of usage, performance at different temperatures, and ability to discharge quickly.”

The trouble with plug-in hybrids (and electric cars, too) is that electricity isn't always cleaner than gasoline. More than 45 percent of electricity in the U.S. is generated by coal-powered plants [source: EIA]. According to another Argonne National Laboratory report, if a plug-in hybrid charges from coal-generated electricity, it could be responsible for emitting up to 10 percent more greenhouse gasses than a conventional vehicle and up to 60 percent more than a standard hybrid [source: Elgowainy].

To be the most economical and practical way to use EV, recharging via roadbeds, with electricity produced by wind and solar, maybe some day. Until then, range will be it's holdback. Who would want to drive a short distance, then wait an hour or more to drive another short distance? I have a 700 mile range on my F150 that's getting 21 MPG, which pound for pound is equivalent to most high MPG cars. Compare that to 100 miles per charge, a 10 hour drive would become a 20 hour drive.

I had a prius, yep they do sound like this

Howdy ACDII. I don't know much about the US grid but from what I read it is around 33 percent coal and dropping about a percent per year. Everytime any electric grid gets 1 percent cleaner so do the emmsions of the electric vehicle.

Also, typical recharge time on even an older slower DCFC vehicle is about 20 minutes, not 10 hours. Are you possibly confusing the recharge time with a level 1 or even slow level 2 charge set up. Typically I can put about an 80 percent charge on 2016 in about 20 minutes and its kinda slow at 50KWH. The Tesla superchargers can be as fast as 125KWH so twice as fast. And most of the new crop of EV's have 400 KM of range.

I do agree with you though in that there are still many bridges to cost and problems to solve. But many countries with relatively clean grids get very little power from coal or natural gas.

Your comments were interesting and thought provoking. Thanks for sharing.

John

[Acdii]

Drawbacks of Lithium batteries used.


Dozens of reports are available on the ecological impact of lithium mining. Unfortunately, many of them are influenced by the perspective of the organizations or authors releasing them. Reducing the available information to studies carried out by government bodies and research institutes around the world, a picture emerges nonetheless:

Elemental lithium is flammable and very reactive. In nature, lithium occurs in compounded forms such as lithium carbonate requiring chemical processing to be made usable.
Lithium is typically found in salt flats in areas where water is scarce. The mining process of lithium uses large amounts of water. Therefore, on top of water contamination as a result of its use, depletion or transportation costs are issues to be dealt with. Depletion results in less available water for local populations, flora and fauna.
Toxic chemicals are used for leaching purposes, chemicals requiring waste treatment. There are widespread concerns of improper handling and spills, like in other mining operations around the world.
The recovery rate of lithium ion batteries, even in first world countries, is in the single digit percent range. Most batteries end up in landfill.
In a 2013 report, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) points out that nickel and cobalt, both also used in the production of lithium ion batteries, represent significant additional environmental risks.

A 2012 study titled “Science for Environment Policy” published by the European Union compares lithium ion batteries to other types of batteries available (lead-acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel-metal-hydride and sodium sulphur). It concludes that lithium ion batteries have the largest impact on metal depletion, suggesting that recycling is complicated. Lithium ion batteries are also, together with nickel-metal-hydride batteries, the most energy consuming technologies using the equivalent of 1.6kg of oil per kg of battery produced. They also ranked the worst in greenhouse gas emissions with up to 12.5kg of CO2 equivalent emitted per kg of battery. The authors do point out that “…for a full understanding of life cycle impacts, further aspects of battery use need to be considered, such as length of usage, performance at different temperatures, and ability to discharge quickly.”

The trouble with plug-in hybrids (and electric cars, too) is that electricity isn't always cleaner than gasoline. More than 45 percent of electricity in the U.S. is generated by coal-powered plants [source: EIA]. According to another Argonne National Laboratory report, if a plug-in hybrid charges from coal-generated electricity, it could be responsible for emitting up to 10 percent more greenhouse gasses than a conventional vehicle and up to 60 percent more than a standard hybrid [source: Elgowainy].

To be the most economical and practical way to use EV, recharging via roadbeds, with electricity produced by wind and solar, maybe some day. Until then, range will be it's holdback. Who would want to drive a short distance, then wait an hour or more to drive another short distance? I have a 700 mile range on my F150 that's getting 21 MPG, which pound for pound is equivalent to most high MPG cars. Compare that to 100 miles per charge, a 10 hour drive would become a 20 hour drive.

I had a prius, yep they do sound like this

[Adam_R]

valhalla360 wrote:
One other issue with using Norway as an example: They subsidize EV's by selling huge amounts of that nasty oil. Take away the oil and you would see a much different approach.

I had dinner with my Norwegian co-worker and his wife last week. From what they told me, EV's are not taxed. Gas and diesel vehicles are heavily taxed. I forgot the exact number, but it's in the 60-80% range on top of the purchase price. They said from a cost of purchasing perspective, EV's are the way to go in Norway.

Adam

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Good morning. I brought up the EU to illustrate that people who live in Norway commute or travel to neighbouring countries routinely with both their EV's and ICE vehicles. But, part of this is because of the infrastructure available to them. We are experienced European travellers, speak multiple languages and have the opportunity to speak with EV'ers in Europe...although not so much in Nowray. And yes, there are a ton of ICE vehicles still on the road in Norway but of course this only makes sense as EV's are not the panacea to every driving need...or at least not in their present form. The future will bring changes of course.

I suggest googling the EU. Norway is not a member

Also given the size and location of population centers of Norway, I doubt you are seeing many people commute to other countries. As an example, Oslo to the nearest boarder is about 45miles. Assuming they are commuting to jobs in major cities, it's at least another 50 miles from the border.

The whole idea that people are using EV's to commute to other countries from Norway doesn't hold up to even modest inspection.

Yes I am aware of Norways status in the European community and marketplace and the Schengen agreement. Commuting 150 KM miles is not fun but not that unusual as well. I am not sure I follow. Agreed that normal commutes are usually shorter...at least for us although I used to do a 400 km weekly commute. That sucked.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:


Its true. Most EV's have software that limit the output current under certain conditions and temperatures. Our one EV does that after thirty seconds of full pedal although in normal driving there would never be a reason to have full pedal after thirty seconds. Not sure about our other one or what the parameters are. I am not sure how they do it with the Formula E cars. I would suspect some sort of cooling system. But as far as Tesla's competing on race tracks, remember, these are just luxury family SUV's and sedans, they were not made to race although they do pretty good on the drag strip. Tesla has shown no interest in racing which is generally done as a form of advertising. Tesla also doesn't advertise. Why would they, they have two years of production pre-sold. Class 8 is easily achievable within a couple years and 100 mile would work well for many routes. And since ranges continually increase on all EV's that number will continue to increase and be suitable for more and more markets. JMHO

Tesla is the one putting it up against super cars.

I was suggesting putting it up against a base Ford Focus with a 4 banger.

[valhalla360]

One other issue with using Norway as an example: They subsidize EV's by selling huge amounts of that nasty oil. Take away the oil and you would see a much different approach.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:


Good morning. I brought up the EU to illustrate that people who live in Norway commute or travel to neighbouring countries routinely with both their EV's and ICE vehicles. But, part of this is because of the infrastructure available to them. We are experienced European travellers, speak multiple languages and have the opportunity to speak with EV'ers in Europe...although not so much in Nowray. And yes, there are a ton of ICE vehicles still on the road in Norway but of course this only makes sense as EV's are not the panacea to every driving need...or at least not in their present form. The future will bring changes of course.

I suggest googling the EU. Norway is not a member.

Also given the size and location of population centers of Norway, I doubt you are seeing many people commute to other countries. As an example, Oslo to the nearest boarder is about 45miles. Assuming they are commuting to jobs in major cities, it's at least another 50 miles from the border.

The whole idea that people are using EV's to commute to other countries from Norway doesn't hold up to even modest inspection.