Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[Gunpilot77]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Keep in mind FMCSA regs are a recommendation for our states BUT states are required to be equal or better those regs.

It has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, but you have that completely backwards. FMCSA regs are the STANDARD in all states if you are commercial. States are not allowed to impose more stringent rules. There are some LEOs who enforce certain paragraphs to the letter, like the one in IA who ticketed one of my friends twice, in two different pickups, for tinted side windows.
That being said, there is no room for different interpretations as far as FMCSA is concerned. If I load my deckover gooseneck flatbed to 16,000 pounds and it is commercial, OK can not ticket me for being over weight based on anything. For one thing, the sticker you are so proud of fell off years ago. I could be ticketed at 16,000 for exceeding the registered weight however, since it is registered for 14,000.
I'm still waiting for that first LEO to look at my door sticker.

[pupeperson]

JIMNLIN said: "571.110 S2.2.1 says "except as noted in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fited to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicles certification required by 49 CFR part 567 (FMVSS placard reg). "

If this quote is correct, it would appear that it would be against the law for a person to install a "D" rated tire (or C or P or whatever lower rating) in the place of an "E" rated tire if the vehicle came equipped with "E" rated tires from the manufacturer.

I doubt that is the case. It is far more likely that the reg quoted applies to the vehicle assembler/manufacturer rather than to the end user. This would also account for the reason the vehicle assembler/manufacturer "under rates" the axles when compared to the ratings given by the actual axle manufacturer.

If the assembler/manufacturer rated a SRW rear axle at the full 10,800 lbs. the axle manufacturer gives it, they'd have to install (according to the Goodyear tire rating chart) at least 275/70R22.5 tires on it to match that axle rating! (5400 lbs per tire at 90 psi single)

That would appear to answer a long standing question regarding the reason behind the axle ratings matching twice the tire ratings --- which would give credence to the fact that what matters is the DOT rating on the tires/wheels and the accurate comparison of the axle weight rating to a mattress tag.

Thanks Jim! You finally posted something that makes sense out of something that has bothered me for a while. Why do they do it(under rate the axle)? Because the regs require them to in order to be in compliance with the tag that has to be there to show the vehicles capabilities AS IT LEFT THE FACTORY, not necessarily after upfitting with more highly rated tires, wheels, suspension components, etc.

For what it's worth, Jim, you're the last person on here I would have expected that info and its resulting claification to come from. Thanks again!

[BertP]

I did manage to find the commercial weight regulations for Alberta (AR 315/2002) and it is similar to the FMCSA regs. It lists max weight per tire, axle, axle group and vehicle among other things.

I was also able to contact a vehicle standards specialist in the Alberta government. According to him, the reason I couldn't find any regs dealing with the weight of private vehicles is because there aren't any. He pointed me to the Traffic Safety Act in particular Section 66. Basically, anyone operating a vehicle in Alberta must ensure that it is in safe operating condition. That covers mechanical condition and weight among other things. So, it isn't illegal to exceed the manufacturer's GVWR unless a LEO believes that such a load is unsafe.

Bert

[jmramiller]

JIMNLIN wrote:

jmramiller wrote:
(snip)
As this is a RV forum I in no way intended the OP to be about commercial towing. I created this thread in direct response to your multitude of posts suggesting to others that if they exceed the axle ratings posted on the door sticker they are in violation of both federal and OK law per FMCSA. You have repeatedly stated that OK uses these regs for both commercial and non commercial vehicles suggesting that non commercial TV's are legally bound by the door sticker. You have repeatedly stated that if you are pulling an RV and you get weighed for any reason in OK and over the door sticker axke weights you will be cited. After reading both the FMCSA and the OK regs there is not a single instance where the RAWR on the door sticker is legally binding. The regs do not even limit the steering axle to the door sticker ratings unless the state writes it in their own codes which the FMCSA allows but does not mandate. I challange you to prove otherwise.

As far as the sticker being required by law...this is intended to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims by the manufacturer. No where in the regs that require the sticker does it require the consumer to abide by these numbers. The comparison of a mattress tag is a very good one. In fact the mattress tag clearly states that it is unlawful for the sticker to be removed by anyone other than the end user. My door sticker doesn't say anywhere that it can not be removed.

you betcha' I have stated how my state enforces door tag axle weights as that is how we balance our loads per FMCSA commercial combined hauling. Any hotshoter/commercial hauler will tell you that. See my replies above for FMCSA regs. Your interpetation of cfr 49 part 567.4 as a matteress tag is yout opinion. No where does it say its just a tag for fradulent claims (disclaimer). Quite the contary. Fmcsa 571.110 is 12 pages long and states how GAWR/tire capacity/GVWR are tied and the placard with that info and the placard are a statutary requirement. That also is a state/fed requirement for a usdot number application and for a commercial combined tag for 26000 lb and above.
No where have I repeatedly said we can be pulled over and cited for being over axle weights. Quite the opposite. Just as those two officer said that RVs are a low priority. What I have said is my state uses those door tag axle weights for commercial (FMCSA) and non commercial which includes axle weights right off the door tag. Your interpetation of my states regs we enforce is quite different that my state dot and OHP officers verbal info as they gave. As I said earlier guess whos interpetation I'll use. How about some documentation to back up your claims. You can't do it. Thats why I went to my state to get their interpetation.
It looks to me as your not interested in finding any legalities as you seem to have a agenda just to prove someone wrong. The only way to prove I'm wrong is show folks a reg that states your claim/opinion.
Those FMCSA 571 regs and FMVSS 571 regs and FMVSS 567.4 and .5 aren't just for looks or simply as a disclaimer but are statutory laws pertaining to door tag (placard) info.
Just a point when your looking at fed regs on the web is sometime its a shortened version. Also look at disclaimer or new law clickies when your in FMCSA regs.

Jim I have repeatedly provided links and quotes to both federal and OK state regs which support my position. Don't believe me? You have a very short memory. Look back at the first post in this thread and you will see a quote which debunks your claims. It cleary indicates that a state can not limit a non steering axle below 20k on the interstate system. That statement alone negates the limit on the door sticker. It is in black and white and it is the law.

Here is the quote again:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The only axle that a state may limit to a manufacturer's established axle rating is the steering axle. I would like to make an important observation here. A lot has been made about the difinition section of this code. It is important to note that in this paragraph the terms everyone keys on in the difinition code are not used - example: GAWR, GVWR. These terms are all associated by difinition with the vehicle manufacturer. In this case the writers of the code did not use these terms. This would indicate that in this instance the "manufacturer" is not the vehicle manufacturer at all but rather the axle manufacturer. If the writers intended to refer to the vehicle manufacturer why would they have not used the terms that they so pains takingly defined? Better yet why did they not simply state "Open the door and look at the tag to see what you can carry/tow"? They didn't do it because that is not the intent of the code whatsoever. I know that none of this will sink through to you (that is a lost cause)and that is fine as I am no longer responding for your benifit but for the benifit of the other readers.

[blt2ski]

Bert,

Do not quote me on this, as it may fall into the catagory of you last sentence about 1 min ago. I believe canada has slightly different actual how you load you rigs wt laws, Ie there is no a 20K limit per axel as "OUR" federal bridge laws state. I seem to recall from talking to a trucker that delivered a bunch of 20-25' W red cedars to me on a flatbed, that he could go to 25K per axel vs 20K here, and 45 per tandem vs 34K or some such variation. Please note, my numbers are from a 10 yr back discussion, and are for just that, discussion purpose only to show that there is a variance between the two country's.

Personaly opinion, is if you were to get pulled over as an RV'r for what ever reason, and wieghed. You did not have a reg wt per say due to your local regs. you would/should be given the fed law bridge limits, ie the 20K per single, and 34500 per tandem. Or like in my state, the above limits, but they also have a tire width limit, so you could or would be below that limit with many rigs also.

Then again, I am not an attny, nor am I a trooper etc. The above is just that, an opinion from my experience of getting pulled over and weighed. As I have a couple of time been over my reg wt, but below the fed bridge laws. In the end, I was given a up GVWR with in 10 days "warning" ticket then the overwt was waved........so on I went.

Some of the issues you are bringing up, in reality, will not be an issue for those of us with RV's. If you were a commercial driver as I am with my dump truck, then yes, they are issues, but for joe public. If one stays below the axl limits stated by the manufacture, you will be fine.......EXCEPTING, when on class A or even some C MH's, the manufacture uses a 25K RA then you are limited to the fed 20K per axel law.

Marty

[BertP]

I saw that. I had been wondering where the legislation was that statedd that you were not permitted to exceed the capacity rating of your tires. I kew it was a bad idea to exceed the tire capacity but you can't be ticketed for having a bad idea.

No, neither Canada nor Alberta recognize any of those regulatories. What I was hoping for was to find the legislation in the US that addressed these issues so I could see the legal language used. Since I have not been able to find the equivalent legislation here, I figured that either it doesn't exist (definate possibility) or I was searching using the wrong terminology (also a definate possibility).

Bert

[JIMNLIN]

Bert
571.110 S2.2.1 says "except as noted in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fited to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicles certification required by 49 CFR part 567 (FMVSS placard reg). If the certification label shows more than one GAWR for the axle system, the sum shall be not less than the GAWR corresponding to the size designation of the tires fitted to the axle".
This ties tires capacity and GAWR. Also see S4.3.3
See 571.3 for GAWR definitions.
NHTSA regs 571.110 refere to GAWR and tires capacities.
How FMCSA/FMVSS/NHTSA regs are interpeted by the states can be argued from now on unless one goes to their state for guidense on how they interpet and enforce those regs.
Does your province/Canada even recognize any of the above regulatories ??
JIM

[JIMNLIN]

jmramiller wrote:
(snip)
As this is a RV forum I in no way intended the OP to be about commercial towing. I created this thread in direct response to your multitude of posts suggesting to others that if they exceed the axle ratings posted on the door sticker they are in violation of both federal and OK law per FMCSA. You have repeatedly stated that OK uses these regs for both commercial and non commercial vehicles suggesting that non commercial TV's are legally bound by the door sticker. You have repeatedly stated that if you are pulling an RV and you get weighed for any reason in OK and over the door sticker axke weights you will be cited. After reading both the FMCSA and the OK regs there is not a single instance where the RAWR on the door sticker is legally binding. The regs do not even limit the steering axle to the door sticker ratings unless the state writes it in their own codes which the FMCSA allows but does not mandate. I challange you to prove otherwise.

As far as the sticker being required by law...this is intended to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims by the manufacturer. No where in the regs that require the sticker does it require the consumer to abide by these numbers. The comparison of a mattress tag is a very good one. In fact the mattress tag clearly states that it is unlawful for the sticker to be removed by anyone other than the end user. My door sticker doesn't say anywhere that it can not be removed.

you betcha' I have stated how my state enforces door tag axle weights as that is how we balance our loads per FMCSA commercial combined hauling. Any hotshoter/commercial hauler will tell you that. See my replies above for FMCSA regs. Your interpetation of cfr 49 part 567.4 as a matteress tag is yout opinion. No where does it say its just a tag for fradulent claims (disclaimer). Quite the contary. Fmcsa 571.110 is 12 pages long and states how GAWR/tire capacity/GVWR are tied and the placard with that info and the placard are a statutary requirement. That also is a state/fed requirement for a usdot number application and for a commercial combined tag for 26000 lb and above.
No where have I repeatedly said we can be pulled over and cited for being over axle weights. Quite the opposite. Just as those two officer said that RVs are a low priority. What I have said is my state uses those door tag axle weights for commercial (FMCSA) and non commercial which includes axle weights right off the door tag. Your interpetation of my states regs we enforce is quite different that my state dot and OHP officers verbal info as they gave. As I said earlier guess whos interpetation I'll use. How about some documentation to back up your claims. You can't do it. Thats why I went to my state to get their interpetation.
It looks to me as your not interested in finding any legalities as you seem to have a agenda just to prove someone wrong. The only way to prove I'm wrong is show folks a reg that states your claim/opinion.
Those FMCSA 571 regs and FMVSS 571 regs and FMVSS 567.4 and .5 aren't just for looks or simply as a disclaimer but are statutory laws pertaining to door tag (placard) info.
Just a point when your looking at fed regs on the web is sometime its a shortened version. Also look at disclaimer or new law clickies when your in FMCSA regs.

[jmramiller]

JIMNLIN wrote:

Wadcutter wrote:
Once again, none of that matters. FMCSA doesn't apply to you pulling your TT, 5er, or driving your Class A. You aren't a motor carrier so forget there is even such a thing as FMCSA. It doesn't apply. If you think FMCSA applies then get your medical card and start filling out your log book everytime you get behind the wheel. But make sure you fill it out correctly or you'll be fined and parked out of service for at least 8 hours.:S

thats been covered and mentioned many times that as RVers we are not required to be commercially licensed BUT the OP asked for fed regs (FMCSA) on door tag placards (door tag) about GVWR/GAWR which is clearly used with these trucks for commercial registration per FMCSA. Looking at federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) 49 cfr part 571.110 and .120 clearly says GVWR/GAWR will be on the door placard (door tag} for under 10000 GVWR/over 10000 lb GVWR. The door tag (placard} is a legal fed document according to FMVSS cfr 49 part 567.4 if any one is interested in reading anything legal pertaining to door tag and GVAR/GAWR rating on that tag for that vehicle. So to answer the OP question about the door tag being a legal document its allLots of reading if anyones interested. If anyones interested go to your state motor vehicle web and do a search on how your state interpets the info on our LDT trucks door tag.
JIM

As this is a RV forum I in no way intended the OP to be about commercial towing. I created this thread in direct response to your multitude of posts suggesting to others that if they exceed the axle ratings posted on the door sticker they are in violation of both federal and OK law per FMCSA. You have repeatedly stated that OK uses these regs for both commercial and non commercial vehicles suggesting that non commercial TV's are legally bound by the door sticker. You have repeatedly stated that if you are pulling an RV and you get weighed for any reason in OK and over the door sticker axke weights you will be cited. After reading both the FMCSA and the OK regs there is not a single instance where the RAWR on the door sticker is legally binding. The regs do not even limit the steering axle to the door sticker ratings unless the state writes it in their own codes which the FMCSA allows but does not mandate. I challange you to prove otherwise.

As far as the sticker being required by law...this is intended to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims by the manufacturer. No where in the regs that require the sticker does it require the consumer to abide by these numbers. The comparison of a mattress tag is a very good one. In fact the mattress tag clearly states that it is unlawful for the sticker to be removed by anyone other than the end user. My door sticker doesn't say anywhere that it can not be removed.

[JIMNLIN]

Wadcutter wrote:
Once again, none of that matters. FMCSA doesn't apply to you pulling your TT, 5er, or driving your Class A. You aren't a motor carrier so forget there is even such a thing as FMCSA. It doesn't apply. If you think FMCSA applies then get your medical card and start filling out your log book everytime you get behind the wheel. But make sure you fill it out correctly or you'll be fined and parked out of service for at least 8 hours.:S

thats been covered and mentioned many times that as RVers we are not required to be commercially licensed BUT the OP asked for fed regs (FMCSA) on door tag placards (door tag) about GVWR/GAWR which is clearly used with these trucks for commercial registration per FMCSA. Looking at federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) 49 cfr part 571.110 and .120 clearly says GVWR/GAWR will be on the door placard (door tag} for under 10000 GVWR/over 10000 lb GVWR. The door tag (placard} is a legal fed document according to FMVSS cfr 49 part 567.4 if any one is interested in reading anything legal pertaining to door tag and GVAR/GAWR rating on that tag for that vehicle. So to answer the OP question about the door tag being a legal document its allLots of reading if anyones interested. If anyones interested go to your state motor vehicle web and do a search on how your state interpets the info on our LDT trucks door tag.
JIM

[Wadcutter]

Once again, none of that matters. FMCSA doesn't apply to you pulling your TT, 5er, or driving your Class A. You aren't a motor carrier so forget there is even such a thing as FMCSA. It doesn't apply. If you think FMCSA applies then get your medical card and start filling out your log book everytime you get behind the wheel. But make sure you fill it out correctly or you'll be fined and parked out of service for at least 8 hours.:S

[BertP]

wadcutter wrote:
No where does anything in FMCSA refers to the door tag.

Bert wrote:
Section 110 paragraph S4.3 says that the placard (or door tag) is required and specifies what must be on it.

wadcutter wrote:
Once again you've proven my point that you don't understand what you are reading. It's talking about the "manufacturer", ie the builder.
Thanks for helping me prove my point about knowing a little and not understanding.

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know what I was thinking.

Bert

PS For the record, 571.110 S4.3 states:

S4.3 Placard. Each vehicle, except for a trailer or incomplete vehicle, shall show the information specified in S4.3 (a) through (g), and may show, at the manufacturer's option, the information specified in S4.3 (h) and (i), on a placard permanently affixed to the driver's side B-pillar. In each vehicle without a driver's side B-pillar and with two doors on the driver's side of the vehicle opening in opposite directions, the placard shall be affixed on the forward edge of the rear side door. If the above locations do not permit the affixing of a placard that is legible, visible and prominent, the placard shall be permanently affixed to the rear edge of the driver's side door. If this location does not permit the affixing of a placard that is legible, visible and prominent, the placard shall be affixed to the inward facing surface of the vehicle next to the driver's seating position. This information shall be in the English language and conform in color and format, not including the border surrounding the entire placard, as shown in the example set forth in Figure 1 in this standard. At the manufacturer's option, the information specified in S4.3 (c), (d), and, as appropriate, (h) and (i) may be shown, alternatively to being shown on the placard, on a tire inflation pressure label which must conform in color and format, not including the border surrounding the entire label, as shown in the example set forth in Figure 2 in this standard. The label shall be permanently affixed and proximate to the placard required by this paragraph. The information specified in S4.3 (e) shall be shown on both the vehicle placard and on the tire inflation pressure label (if such a label is affixed to provide the information specified in S4.3 (c), (d), and, as appropriate, (h) and (i)) may be shown in the format and color scheme set forth in Figures 1 and 2.

[Wadcutter]

BertP wrote:
Section 110 paragraph S4.3 says that the placard (or door tag) is required and specifies what must be on it.
Bert

Once again you've proven my point that you don't understand what you are reading. It's talking about the "manufacturer", ie the builder.
Thanks for helping me prove my point about knowing a little and not understanding.

[BertP]

Section 110 paragraph S4.3 says that the placard (or door tag) is required and specifies what must be on it.

Bert

[Wadcutter]

JIMNLIN wrote:

571 FMCSA regs on door tag info does apply just as federal motor vehicle safety standards apply part 49 sect 567.4 thats says that door tag is a legal document. I never said we need a commercial license for our RVs. What those fed laws I just mention says is your mattress tag theory is just that, your theory. Door tag info is a legal document per those fed regs I mentioned above. Your saying they don't apply ?? Your kiddin' , right ??
How your/my state enforces those regs is why I keep saying , check with your state for their input on how thay enforce those FMCSA regs.
JIM

Once more - you're mixing apples and oranges and coming up with roast beef. No where does anything in FMCSA refers to the door tag. Sorry, but you're reading one thing and thinking it means something else. Again, a typical case of knowing a little bit about something and thinking it makes you an expert.
BTW, I don't need to check with my state. I taught MCS. I was on several advisory committees with the feds and other states. I worked with it for a lot of years. MCS doesn't apply to what you are trying to make it sound.
Nothing, including FMCSA, requires the federal sticker. Sorry, but all your quotes don't say that it does.
Besides, FMCSA doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the topic.