AGM and golf carts vs. Lithium Battery Test

[Son_of_Norway]

I just happened across a "Mortons on the Move" YouTube video. "Don't waste your money on batteries". (Can't figure out how to link it on my phone.) Very informative info and test comparison between golf cart, AGM and the Battle Borns. Worth a look. What was striking to me was that the lead-acid batteries did not perform to their rated capacities even under laboratory conditions. I have always thought that my AGM's were not giving the amp-hours that I hoped for even with light loads.

[TurnThePage]

Tom_M wrote:

TurnThePage wrote:
No doubt they are expensive, but somebody pointed out how you won't get your money's worth out of them unless you keep your RV for a long time. I submit that if you are one to buy and sell your RV every few years, you're losing more than the cost of Battleborn batteries every time you replace your RV.

You could always swap batteries when you buy a new RV.

Absolutely. I'm the type that hangs on to vehicles and RVs for a long time so it's no skin off my back. Somebody mentioned how it's a waste of money because they won't keep the RV long enough to recoup the cost. I was simply pointing out that rolling over to new RVs every 5 years is already a losing proposition.

[Tom_M1]

TurnThePage wrote:
No doubt they are expensive, but somebody pointed out how you won't get your money's worth out of them unless you keep your RV for a long time. I submit that if you are one to buy and sell your RV every few years, you're losing more than the cost of Battleborn batteries every time you replace your RV.

You could always swap batteries when you buy a new RV.

[theoldwizard1]

pnichols wrote:
Of course ... you know that AGM batteries in 6V golf cart sizes for true deep cycle use are available? These 6V type/size AGM batteries definitely are not intended for vehicle starting.

The 12V AGM batteries in our MH ...

Trojan make 6V and 12V golf cart batteries in AGM, T105-AGM and T1275-AGM. Expensive and not easy to locate.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Greening in the hard curing of new paste on plates. It is done with plate saturation with H2SO4 and electricity applied in a non linear curve. After which the cells are filled with electrolyte but no more charge. This is where a top charge pays off before putting the cells to work.

No battery "test" is worth ten cents unless it is performed to BCI specs then analyzed on a documented white paper. Reams of mumbo jumbo make good fire starting wads.

Use your noodle people! 6,000 days is how many years? It is the VIABILITY of accelerated testing that separates the legitimate testers from the knotheads.

No lead acid battery with plates .040" - .060" can be considered a recyclable accumulator. As far as I am aware of only the Concorde (Lifeline) battery with .105" plates is eligible to be monikered a cycleable AGM.
The subject of ease of recovery of any mistreated battery was never covered.
I made my living doing accelerated life cycle testing of pallets of batteries from UL size to L-16.
Test results had to be given in a white paper format.
Ron Popiel presentations were rejected out of hand. If adjusted charging and discharging (amp hours format) were not used the "tests" were considered garbage. Laughed at by battery design engineers and manufacturers.
If a test organism could not autopsy or build a valid battery they are a fraud

[wopachop]

Totally unfair. They knew.

[pnichols]

agesilaus wrote:
MIGO TMI..heh. He packs so much tech data in so fast it's impossible to evaluate. And I am a tech tho not of the electrical variety. One thing I fished out of the flood was that the cheap 6V golf cart batteries were the most cost efficient. Strange that he didn't include Trojans or another high quality brand into the test. He then launches into the life cycle cost analysis. That's where I gave up. I have to admit that I have suspicions that this fellow is in the pocket of Battleborn. The info about 6V batteries was inserted in a very fleeting manner, almost as if he was hiding it.
As for life cycle I will admit that if you keep your RV for 20 years or so then yes, Lithiums may pay for themselves. But most of us will not. And even if you have to replace your 6V battery pack once or twice over your time in the RV the costs will never approach the $4000 LiB battery pack price.
I have never been a fan of AGM, they are designed to start a vehicle not store energy. Golf cart batteries are designed to store power and so are the LiB.
So I'll stick with 6V unless the price of LiB plummets. Something I doubt will happen because of the scarcity of lithium.

Of course ... you know that AGM batteries in 6V golf cart sizes for true deep cycle use are available? These 6V type/size AGM batteries definitely are not intended for vehicle starting.

The 12V AGM batteries in our MH also have nothing to do with vehicle starting - they are labeled and specified to be specifically intended for deep cycle applications. They also charge fast because of their low internal resistance.

FWIW, lithium batteries are noted for holding a higher terminal voltage right down to their total discharge point. This is not always a good thing, as this can be a problem for knowing how much charge they have left because it's more complicated to tell when they're getting low - unless they're monitored with equipment that keeps track of current consumed versus time while in use. i.e. For the AGM batteries in our MH, I just check their terminal voltage with a simple, inexpensive digital voltmeter in order to tell how low in charge they are.

[agesilaus]

pianotuna wrote:
They did not "green" the lead acid jars. The Mortons do accept gifts.

Is this English?

[pianotuna]

/

[TurnThePage]

No doubt they are expensive, but somebody pointed out how you won't get your money's worth out of them unless you keep your RV for a long time. I submit that if you are one to buy and sell your RV every few years, you're losing more than the cost of Battleborn batteries every time you replace your RV.

[agesilaus]

FWC wrote:
Assuming you are cycling your battery hard every day (365 cycles) then there is really not much advantage to a battery that provides more than 2-3000 cycles, as calendar aging will kill it long before cycle aging. For most of us here that may only deeply cycle our batteries 50 - 100 times a year, then 1000 - 2000 cycle is plenty.

Exactly my point. If your battery makes it for 6 years and you cycle them 100 times a year that's only 600 cycles. The potential to get 5000 or 10000 cycles is meaningless in RV terms.

[wopachop]

I scrolled to the test section a little before the 8min mark. He doesnt mention cycling the flooded deep cells before performing the test. Trojan specifically says the batteries will not reach max capacity until 50-100 cycles. He didnt test trojans but im guessing all flooded lead acid would perform similar regarding capacity and cycles. 

Appears to be a battleborn commercial from the little i watched. Notice how its edited so that when the voice is saying "so what is the best battery???" the battleborn label is right there main screen and the other batteries are blank. To me thats subliminal stuff they pull in commercials.

They went through a lot of trouble to control temps and stuff but in my opinion purposely did not cycle the flooded battery.

[FWC]

PS For anyone who wants to learn more about this, here are some papers and a thesis on 'calendar aging':
U. Waterloo Thesis
Journal of Energy Storage
DuBarry et al., 2018

Fair warning, these are highly technical and make the prior video look a bit simplistic.

[FWC]

These 'value comparisons' based on the cost of the battery/the number of cycle are kind of silly. First, I sincerely doubt that the manufacturers have actually done any where near the testing necessary to know what the cycle life of their cells are when those cycle lives are > 2-3000. They model it, and while these models could be accurate, they have a lot of parameters that need to be assumed.

Secondly, and most importantly, so called 'cycle aging' is only one of the ways that a battery ages. There is also something called 'calendar aging' which is the rate at which a battery ages as a function of time, regardless of whether it is being used or not. This is a factor for both lead-acid and lithium batteries. It is not so important for lead acid batteries as they typically degrade from cycle aging before calendar aging becomes an issue. However if you are going to advertise a battery with a 10,000 cycle life, then calendar aging is absolutely an issues. This had been researched for LiFePO4, and the rate of aging is a function of temperature (mostly) and storage state of charge (less so). For a 100% charged LiFePO4 battery stored at 30C the calendar aging is around 4% per year. If you take providing 80% of rated capacity as the metric for battery failure, then even an LiFePO4 battery will only 'last' 5-6 years, regardless of the number of cycles.

Assuming you are cycling your battery hard every day (365 cycles) then there is really not much advantage to a battery that provides more than 2-3000 cycles, as calendar aging will kill it long before cycle aging. For most of us here that may only deeply cycle our batteries 50 - 100 times a year, then 1000 - 2000 cycle is plenty.

Now there are plenty of other reasons to like lithium batteries, such as lower weight and volume, flat voltage curve, simple charging profile etc. But just dividing the price by the cycle life is not an honest or accurate metric.

[theoldwizard1]

agesilaus wrote:
One thing I fished out of the flood was that the cheap 6V golf cart batteries were the most cost efficient.

I caught that also, but they did not do well under high discharges.

agesilaus wrote:
Strange that he didn't include Trojans or another high quality brand into the test.

I would love to see a test like that, but my gut says it will be another "life cycle" issue. I suspect the Trojan's will handle more charge/discharge cycles. Difficult to prove outside of a fully automated professional laboratory envirnment.

agesilaus wrote:
So I'll stick with 6V unless the price of LiB plummets.

It has ! First, most (all?) large LiFePO4 cells are made in China. Battle Born and other companies buy individual cells connect them together install a battery monitoring system and put them in a nice sealed box.

Not only can you buy very similar 100Ah individual cells directly from China, but they are also sell 200Ah and 280Ah cells ! The total price of a 280Ah 12V battery pack is actually LESS than 1 Battle Born 100Ah 12V battery.


$433 280Ah LiFePO4 Cells Tested: Cheaper than lead acid! This does NOT include the BMS and some other small consumables.

If you want to see more videos like this, go to YouTube and search for "280ah lifepo4".