3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Clark_W__Griswo]

prof,

Thanks for all of your input into this subject. It has been a good learning experience for me. I appreciate your time and effort.

I am leaning towards going with the Honda option for various reasons. In regards to the Honda EU2000i vs the EU3000i. I have a 13,5000 AC unit on my 2000 model 5ver. What would be the concerns with using the 2000i? Someone had mentioned on another thread that it may cause damage to the AC unit while others say it will power it with no problem.

As it stands now we would only use the gen 3-4 times per year. And only maybe twice in hot weather.

[CarNut]

This has been a great post and Thanks to Professor for all the info. I had similar (lack of) success in Mich.
Does anyone know if the Nikota can be hard-wired to synchronize both sides of the gen circuit? I would think it could be done if the two windings are separately wired...
Thanks again. I have learned much on this post and many other RV.net posts. We bought our trailer last summer and had a great time!

[professor95]

Oh yes - one piece of advice for those of you who have purchased new Jiang Dong family generators. Check the carburetor drain plug to be sure it is tight! Mine, and several others, have been loose and leaked gasoline.

[professor95]

To help answer some of the recent questions about “dirty power”, frequency and voltage levels from generators I have made some photos of measurements taken from three different generators I own and even included some shots from a battery sourced 1500 watt inverter that we use as well. Sorry, I don’t own a Honda or Yamaha, but would be glad to make some measurements of them as well if someone wants to donate one to the cause.

Don’t expect a lot of quality from this web site. It is one of those cheesy little site builder thingamabobs that my ISP throws in as part of my broadband service package. I don’t have much control of what it looks like and can’t change the photo order once I set up my image files – thus, the sound reading for the ELM3000 is in the very last frame.

I used a 100 Mhz ditital oscilloscope to display an image of the generator's signals. An oscilloscope measures two things – amplitude and time. Thus it can show the various amplitudes of a signal over a specified period of time. In this case, one complete wave from the center line making a “mountain” that falls into a “valley” and then back to the center line represents 360 degrees of rotation of an alternator (generator).

The photo of the sine wave for my house power should be the reference standard. It is a pure 60 Hz. sinusoidal wave without any spikes, harmonics or flutter. Note the smooth rise and fall of the wave as it passes from the center line on the scope to positive and then to negative.

Ideally, we would also like to see between 110 and 125 volts RMS on the digital multimeter (top left in the photos).

In the bottom left of the photos is a frequency counter. It is measuring the number of cycles from the power source in a period of one second. 60 cycles (or Hertz) is ideal, but anything between 58 and 62 will make little difference to anything but electric clocks.

You will note that on all three generators tested the sine wave ramps very quickly and does not present the nice smooth rise and fall of my house power example. This is typical of “brushless” AC generators that do not use slip rings and should cause no concern to RVers using the generators to power equipment on their rigs.

Both the ELM3000 and Kawasaki generators do have some “trash” and distortion in the signal that could cause problems in sensitive electronic equipment. But, again, I do not believe any of us will have equipment in our RV’s that is sensitive enough to have a problem from any of these generators – unless you have a portable CAT-Scan or MRI unit on board.

I have owned the Kawasaki unit for quite a few years - maybe as many as 20? Basic generator technology has not evolved much since it was built. It has been on many a dry camping run and always seemed relatively quite - at least no one ever complained or put sugar in my gas tank during the night. The ELM3000 is even quiter.

The behemoth, noisy Generac 5500 actually had the cleanest waveform, even if the voltage was way too high and the frequency off by 5 cycles. Still, this beast has gotten us through 2 major hurricanes and one tropical depression (Floyd, Isabel and Gaston) along with dozens of ice storm in the past 10 years. It has almost a thousand hours on it now and still powers the freezer, well pump, refrigerator and various lights, fans and TVs to bring comfort to a powerless night (or week).

I made measurements on all of the generators with no load and under load. Of course, the load tests are the most relevant.

Sound measurments were made in dB mode. The quitest was the ELM3000 - even up close. Actually, the reading at 20 feet was with the ... level.

Lastly, I made some shots of the signals from a 1,500 watt battery powered inverter mounted...


http://home.comcast.net/~professor95/wsb/index.html
(if the link does not work by clicking on it, try cutting and pasting it into your browser address box)

[moomoo]

thx professor for the info. went out and purchased an elim3000 from pep boys in ohio (they had 3 in stock). the 800-1700 saved can now be used for other toys. maybe a little louder than honda/yamaha, but who cares at a motocross race....i am planning on firing it up tomorrow (same day our new 5er arrives) and will post any problems if any that i expierence.

[Fishreed]

Selling generators for what a buyer will pay and what a seller will take is not "scam city". It's called the free market.

And NO, I'm not selling anything on e-bay.

Sorry to inform you but adverising ANY product at any price and not having the product to sell in Michigan is called a scam and has absolutely nothing to do with a "free" market. A raincheck that is not honored is also a scam.

[McDonoughDawg]

Selling generators for what a buyer will pay and what a seller will take is not "scam city". It's called the free market.

And NO, I'm not selling anything on e-bay.

[Guest]

I'm also in Michigan with the same Pepboys results as Fishreed. In my case I at least got Pepboys to give me a raincheck on the ELM3000 at $279. I don't know if they'll ever get more, or if they'll honor the raincheck but it's better than nothing.

I also like the Champion C46535 (actually maybe I prefer it) but again I can't find it in Michigan. Too far from the coasts???

[mavapa]

I understand your feeling about that. There appear not to be any available locally here. I looked online at the quiet generators again yesterday. Even at $400 for the eBay versions, it is less than 1/3 the cost of one of the Yamahas, and only about half the cost of a smaller Honda. For occasional or emergency use, it still looks like a fairly good deal.

[Fishreed]

Well I found this thread earlier today, and since then I ran to Kragens(since I couldnt find one at Pep Boys anywhere in CA).

I got this one.

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=AMS&mfrpartnumber=03800

Mine came with a wheel kit and the wrench to do the job too!!

Out of 14 some odd Pep Boys in Michigan and NOT ONE had a ELM3000.....NOT ONE. The Pep BOY'S warehouse was out of them also. I refuse to pay 325.00 or more dollars for one of them on EBAY and add another 80.00 for shipping when they are going for 249.00. SCAM CITY.

[mkmathis]

Well I found this thread earlier today, and since then I ran to Kragens(since I couldnt find one at Pep Boys anywhere in CA).

I got this one.

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=AMS&mfrpartnumber=03800

Mine came with a wheel kit and the wrench to do the job too!!

[misscall1]

Found this site last night my husband and I were going to buy a elim3000 a couple of months ago on ebay but we were not well enough informed on it to make the purchase.Since we have read this site we went out today and bought one .pepboys 279. with a 20.00 rebate.We live in niagara falls and called the dealer here(elim3000) to see if we could pick it up right from there warehouse and ,that was going to be fine ,but We went to pepboys instead.
We have a 5'er 30ft,and are planning a trip to TN in July and would like as back up if we need to run ac at night while we work our way there,. I want to thank the professor for all of his fine hard work.
Amy and John
Niagara falls,ny

[Tandem_Cyclist]

Red Clay, The offending generator was an ELM 3000 Watt built by Jung. Some guy brought a truck load of them to Quartzsite and sold them for around $300. There were motorcycles and scooters built by Jung here too.

I'm with you Corky. On the BLM land here we pretty much police ourselves. I have made no friends with the 2% that I have given a watch too (Only a $2 one). But the other 98% sorta like me.

This has been the most civilized thread I have read. Maybe someone should stir it up and send it to Lou Dobbs. Hey I don't have any kids so you guys buy where you want. Don't start I'm just joking.

Rick

[Rocky7184]

Sure glad i found this thread.I have found it to be very interesting and informative(thanks professor).And the tech talk really helps me understand how these things work.Thanks to all who gave some great advice......And i actually learned something today that i did not know yesterday.

[professor95]

an Inverter genset produces an aproximation of a sine wave

it does this with PWM 'pulse width modulation '

A very good description. Thank you! Except....... I believe Honda's inverter technology relies on PAM (Pluse Amplitude Modulation) rather than PWM. I agree that most conventional switching inverters rely on PWM.

If I understood the original problem, it was a conventional sine wave generator that would not run the refrigerator without a "line conditioner". This concept still puzzles me and I wish I had more information, or at least the opportunity to look at the output of said generator on an oscilloscope. As we both noted, RV absorbtion refrigerators today have an electronic controller board rather than a mechanical thermostat. In "house" mode the controller is powered through the RV's converter, receiving a pretty well regulated 12-13 volts DC. The converter acts as a filter to the incoming 110 volt sine, square or modified sine wave source. 110 volts is applied directly to the resistance heating element in the refrig. The heater really doesn't care what kind of wave it sees as long as the RMS value of the signal is equal to an equivalent DC value. So, I am still back on square one as to the possible problem.

I think we speak the same electronics/electrical "language". It would be nice to sit down and batter around the theories involved here - we could possibly come up with some real paradigm breaking concepts!

BTW - I have looked at the output of the ELM3000 on a scope. Actually, it is a pretty dirty signal (but so are the other generators I have access to). There are a considerable number of small spikes and deflections. Converting the scope pattern to a phasor diagram, one is particularly noticeable at 65 to 72 degrees and at equal intervals thereafter. There are also a considerable number of harmonics generated that show up on the power line...... Shucks, I'll make a measurment tomorrow and post it so you can see.

Earlier I had noted that even if the signal from the ELM3000 was rough, it was, IMHO, consistent enough to run any device found in an RV. But I would NOT want to use it as a power source in a lab or hospital.