Supplemental Brake... Necessity or Preference

[JohnnyT]

We seem to have a good number of discussions on the issue of the need for supplemental brakes... Unfortunately many of the discussions are not very productive in terms of giving those who have an open mind and who are genuinely trying to gather information useful information. Nor is there much value in trying to get those that have their minds made up to change or even consider another point of view...

As is often the case when the subject of supplemental brakes comes up some opinions offered are based on their own choices... Which may or many not fit your situation. In some instances these opinions offered are not constructive but lapse into you are wrong and I am right...

Area's to do your own assessment as to need or desirability;

State Law's
Weight of towed vehicle in relation to motorhome
Amount of rear overhang
Rated capacity of motorhome service Brakes
Chassis/Motorhome Manufacturers recommendations
Reduction of braking force required of motorhome service brakes..
Ability to have Break Away braking
Motorhome brake wear
Operational Reliability of the Supplemental Brake

State Law
The reality is that almost all states do have laws requiring supplemental brakes for trailers and most states do not have any stated requirements for supplemental brakes for motor vehicles in tow... However many states do have laws specific to motor vehicles being towed, in some instances those laws require the ability to stop within a specified distance at a specific speed. There are also a number of states that have a weight limitation on the weight that can be towed without a supplemental brake. There are a good number of states that require a supplemental brake system. The link previously posted appears to give an accurate summary of the specific requirements by state.
Towing Laws By State I would review the information in the link provided and reach your own judgment as to the legal requirement...

Rather than any legal requirement or wear issue to the service brakes on the motorhome, the issue I would be considering first is safety margin. I would want to be in compliance with the legal requirements where ever I towed, but my issue is safety margin. I would start with understanding the;

Rated capacity of motorhome service Brakes
Some chassis manufacturers will specify that the use of a supplemental brake is required after some minimal weight usually around 1500 pounds. Other Manufacturers will state that the service brakes are only rated for GVWR not GCWR... So I would consult your owners manual or call the chassis manufacturer.

A supplemental brake ought to lessen the braking force required by the motorhome service brakes. This would be of particular note on long down hill descents since the added braking force will lessen the amount of braking force needed by the motorhome service brakes. Which should lessen the potential for brake fade due to overheating of the brakes. I personally do not put much faith in advertising claims in terms of stopping distances but I have done a bit of non scientific testing to the point that I am certain that when using the same amount of pedal pressure I am able to stop in a shorter distance with the dinghy in tow with the supplemental brake activated than without...

The other issue is that the weight of the towed vehicle will be pushing its full weight on the back of the motorhome which would exacerbate any handling issues during hard braking if the towed vehicle and the motorhome are not in alignment. If the motorhome happened to have a long overhang and the weight of the towed vehicle is any significant percentage of the motorhome the more likely that the weight of the towed vehicle pushing on the back of the motorhome will be a factor relative to handling in a hard braking situation.

One last area...If you decide you want a supplemental brake system... Then pick the one that best maps to your requirements... For those brake systems that have user adjustments invest the time to calibrate your brake so that it will provide the braking force intended. Here is an excellent description of the various Supplemental Brake Systems.

For those that are only interested in having a supplemental system that only provides braking in the event of a break away here is one such system Break Away only option

As you work through the decision process of whether or not making the investment for a supplemental brake system is warranted...There are a myriad of variant opinions... With justifications for supplemental brake system or rationales against... Unfortunately many of the discussions are predicated based on extremes some of which are uncommonly unlikely or have the potential to be avoided; Brake fade, a dinghy that breaks away, an accident where braking ability was a factor or becomes a factor in litigation. Any of which are either rare or unlikely. The odds of any can be reduced by adjusting ones driving strategy or going the route of investing in a suitable supplemental braking system or both... In my case both. In addition our coach is also equipped with a 2 stage engine brake.

The reality is that beyond any legal requirement which is not commonly going to be an issue in terms of enforcement or liability. The issue of brake fade can be avoided by altering driving style to reduce the factors that cause brake fade... Stopping distance can be taken into account by increasing the distance between the vehicle in front and driving a lower speeds. The potential for a break away can be lessoned with preventive care of towing apparatus and the proper use of safety chains/cables. The added braking force of a supplemental brake system can be an added safety margin for those un predictable situations... Its up to each individual to reach their own conclusions.

The one area that is the most difficult take preventative measure for is the weight of the dinghy pushing against the back of the motorhome in a emergency braking situation where the dinghy is not in direct alignment with the motorhome... In those instances where the motorhome has a long overhang will exacerbate the potential problem which will be amplified as the weight of the dinghy increases as a percentage of the motorhome weight.

While I have invested in a supplemental brake system, that is my personal choice... I fully subscribe that the likelihood that the absolute need beyond conformance with legal requirements would fall into the very low percentile... Which is comforting..unless you are in the small percentile group.

JohnnyT Moderator

[Sully2]

rvjer wrote:
Well, IMO, an Aux brake system is a necessity. I understand that not all people think that is true and that is their privilege, but I KNOW my rig stops shorter and with less pedal effort with the brake system then without it. I have tested this under controlled situations to prove the point. Also having the ability to adjust the braking force from the dash of the M/H is a great bonus. Yes, any system can fail, but how many do you hear of in relation to how many are being used? My proportional system does need to be installed but it can be moved from one vehicle to another and I have done exactly that. The "brake in a box" systems are good in a panic situation and work fine if you don't mind installing and uninstalling it each time you use it, or if you change toads often it might make more sense.

I agree with you 100%. Me personally..I WOULD NOT own and tow with a gasser chassis RV without using some sort of supplemental braking system. AND..I wouldnt be towing anything heavier than approx what I presently tow

[Sully2]

jahapp wrote:

magicbus wrote:

jahapp wrote:
I invested in a braking system Johnny. The pendulum stuck on and the light did not come on. Cost me $2300 for a complete brake job.I have elected not to use it any longer. The other side of the coin is I have seen 2 separate instances of toad underneath mh for lack of a system.

Aside form the fact that I never felt the need for one, this is probably the single biggest concern I have... I simply do not trust them. I am a bit confused by the last statement about the "toad underneath mh"... I guess this implies that the tow bar was not properly leveled with the RV hitch:?

Dave

When the mh panic stops, the rear end raises up, the front end of the toad drops down and the toad slides around sideways and ends up underneath the back end of the mh.

Sprung chassis...sure does dip in the front / raise in the rear...but just how much you thing an air ride chassis is going to do that??? Complex test made easy: Go hook your toad on and then manually inflat your REAR airbags to their MAXIMUM height...then go and look at the different in "altitudes" between the coach and the toad!

If MY toad "slides around sideways"...Im first going to be breaking a 7000 pound test cable ( I tow a 3800 lb jeep!). Im also going to be totally wrecking a 10,000 pound rated tow bar..and although I havent measured it..I may also be breaking my 6000 pound test "break-a-way" chain???
Possible to do? Sure. Chances of it happening..? NADA!

Ive been thru 2 of those ( and hope it never happens again) "We bought the farm" emergency stops...and Im not the slightest bit afraid of stopping my rig ( MY RIG..as its presently configured)

[rvjer]

Well, IMO, an Aux brake system is a necessity. I understand that not all people think that is true and that is their privilege, but I KNOW my rig stops shorter and with less pedal effort with the brake system then without it. I have tested this under controlled situations to prove the point. Also having the ability to adjust the braking force from the dash of the M/H is a great bonus. Yes, any system can fail, but how many do you hear of in relation to how many are being used? My proportional system does need to be installed but it can be moved from one vehicle to another and I have done exactly that. The "brake in a box" systems are good in a panic situation and work fine if you don't mind installing and uninstalling it each time you use it, or if you change toads often it might make more sense.

[topflite51]

Dave, he didn't say it happened to him.

[magicbus]

jahapp wrote:
When the mh panic stops, the rear end raises up, the front end of the toad drops down and the toad slides around sideways and ends up underneath the back end of the mh.

Wow! You have actually had this happen to you???!!! I simply can't imagine how a toad could end up under and RV unless they were way out of height alignment - and even then I would think the sheer weight of the MH should prevent this. Could you post more information on your rig? Maybe in a different thread as this is a bit off-topic but certainly of interest as it could happen to anyone - even if their Brake Buddy fails in a panic stop.

Dave

[jahapp]

magicbus wrote:

jahapp wrote:
I invested in a braking system Johnny. The pendulum stuck on and the light did not come on. Cost me $2300 for a complete brake job.I have elected not to use it any longer. The other side of the coin is I have seen 2 separate instances of toad underneath mh for lack of a system.

Aside form the fact that I never felt the need for one, this is probably the single biggest concern I have... I simply do not trust them. I am a bit confused by the last statement about the "toad underneath mh"... I guess this implies that the tow bar was not properly leveled with the RV hitch:?

Dave

When the mh panic stops, the rear end raises up, the front end of the toad drops down and the toad slides around sideways and ends up underneath the back end of the mh.

[bacollins]

JohnnyT wrote:

stevelv wrote:
So here's a technical question

If a manufacturer rates their braking system for the GCWR of the MH (that's the weight of the MH PLUS the weight of the toad) then can braking distances be shortened by having a supplementary braking system operating on the toad?

First I do not think there are many Motorhomes with brakes rated to full GCWR...

I believe that supplemental brake "can" shorten the stopping distances under some circumstances... The question is how much and under what circumstances... And it would depend a great deal on which supplemental brake system... Since many of the supplemental brake systems have user settings which will vary the amount of braking force.

Supplemental Brakes are not the panacea for accident avoidance...I do believe that no amount of added braking force will overcome driver errors due to inattentiveness, fatique or mistakes in judgment. Or add any predictable protection due to actions of other vehicles, road hazards, or road conditions.

I do believe that aside from failure of the supplemental brakes which is possible that the addition of a supplemental brake system can add a safety margin.

JohnnyT Moderator

Excellent Johnny. 🙂

[JohnnyT]

stevelv wrote:
So here's a technical question

If a manufacturer rates their braking system for the GCWR of the MH (that's the weight of the MH PLUS the weight of the toad) then can braking distances be shortened by having a supplementary braking system operating on the toad?

First I do not think there are many Motorhomes with brakes rated to full GCWR...

I believe that supplemental brake "can" shorten the stopping distances under some circumstances... The question is how much and under what circumstances... And it would depend a great deal on which supplemental brake system... Since many of the supplemental brake systems have user settings which will vary the amount of braking force.

Supplemental Brakes are not the panacea for accident avoidance...I do believe that no amount of added braking force will overcome driver errors due to inattentiveness, fatique or mistakes in judgment. Or add any predictable protection due to actions of other vehicles, road hazards, or road conditions.

I do believe that aside from failure of the supplemental brakes which is possible that the addition of a supplemental brake system can add a safety margin.

JohnnyT Moderator

[rvten]

Looking at that Readybrake Break away system. Not sure I could find a place to drill through the fire wall on our G6 without hitting something. No clear passage through engine compartment.

I wanted the Pontiac dealer to make a hole in fire wall for my toad lights and break away. He really did not want to do it.

So I ended up running wires through doors hinge area and engine hood to front end when ready to tow.

[stevelv]

So here's a technical question

If a manufacturer rates their braking system for the GCWR of the MH (that's the weight of the MH PLUS the weight of the toad) then can braking distances be shortened by having a supplementary braking system operating on the toad?

[topflite51]

Dave, that system is so simple. Don't see why anyone would not order it and install it tomorrow.

[JohnnyT]

magicbus wrote:
Johnny - In the interests of accuracy I humbly suggest that you remove the "Ability to have Break Away braking" from your list of items to think about. This has been covered a number of time on this forum and a very simple breakaway system is available for any vehicle and it has nothing to do with an aux system.

Click here for a stand alone breakaway system

Dave

Good point Dave... I will see how I can modify the post to incorporate your point... It is possible to have a break away only which for some folks might satisfy their assessment of their needs...

I am not familiar with this system do you have any experience with its use?...

JohnnyT

[magicbus]

Johnny - In the interests of accuracy I humbly suggest that you remove the "Ability to have Break Away braking" from your list of items to think about. This has been covered a number of time on this forum and a very simple breakaway system is available for any vehicle and it has nothing to do with an aux system.

Click here for a stand alone breakaway system

Dave

[JohnnyT]

The purpose of this thread is not to try and convert anyone who has their minds made up... Nor to serve as a venue for those who want to disparage those have made decisions one way or the other...

It is however intended to give folks who are considering whether to make the investment or not some food for thought. And some insight based on the experiences of others...

Lets keep the discussion on the technical and operations considerations in making the decision.

JohnnyT Moderator

[magicbus]

jahapp wrote:
I invested in a braking system Johnny. The pendulum stuck on and the light did not come on. Cost me $2300 for a complete brake job.I have elected not to use it any longer. The other side of the coin is I have seen 2 separate instances of toad underneath mh for lack of a system.

Aside form the fact that I never felt the need for one, this is probably the single biggest concern I have... I simply do not trust them. I am a bit confused by the last statement about the "toad underneath mh"... I guess this implies that the tow bar was not properly leveled with the RV hitch:?

Dave