Hitch pin location

[Reddog1]

I have a few questions based on the following setup. I have a '04 Dodge 3500 Quad Cab DRW truck. I have it setup to haul my TC, and my '87 Alpenlite 19. The Alpenlite weight is 5000 lbs, with pin weight of 360 lbs. It has a 10 inch pin box extension. My bumper pull hitch is a Curt with a 2550 lb tongue weight capacity.

1 It is generally said the pin weight should be over the rear axle or a couple of inches forward. If true why? On my truck the bumper hitch will handle 2550 lb tongue weight capacity. Why could I not put the pin weight over the hitch?

2 Considering my '87 Alpenlite 19 is 5000 lbs with pin weight of 360 lbs., would I have any negative issues pulling down the highway with a slider hitch slid all the way to the back?

[Reddog1]

valhalla360 wrote:
... How you measured is very relevant as there appears to be something wrong with the numbers. Since we don't have access to your rig to measure ourselves, the only way we can figure out if there was a mistake is by understanding how you measured it. I was well aware of the full comment but it doesn't change anything, hence it was omitted.

I stated more than once how I weighed my truck and trailer. I even stated I weighed two times because I questioned the numbers. I appreciate you don't have access to my rig to weigh it yourself. Its weight is what it is. The Brochure I have or the numbers you provided from NADA do not change that.

valhalla360 wrote:
As far as NADA, they take the manufacturers numbers. Maybe they are off by that much but I doubt it, since it would make the trailer almost overweight empty. Empty weights are simply numbers that the manufacturer can provide since they don't know how much stuff you will put in the RV. That's why they are provided.

It is worth noting, NADA weight does not agree with the Alpenlite Brochure.

valhalla360 wrote:
You've clearly got it all figured out and don't want input, so you do what you want. You've been warned but clearly don't want to follow it. You might get away with it or you might not.

I appreciate positive input. I wish I did have it figured out, if I thought I did I would not have wasted my time asking the questions. I think most posters read the posts and gave thought what they posted. Unfortunately, some only read one or two words and went off on a tangent.

valhalla360 wrote:
Edit: I just noticed you mentioned having a sway issues with this setup. That suggests bad things were going on as 5th wheels just don't sway. The oversize truck may have got you out of it that time but in similar conditions it might not.

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

First is I posted my first trip only I had sway. I also stated the box in the rear was full of oak. Never happened since I removed the oak. While I am concerned, I would stop short of saying I am having "sway issues with this setup". Then you state "... 5th wheels just don't sway." To say I have sway issues the follow up with 5th wheels don't sway .....

I do need to add pin weight. I question this 5th wheel ever had 10% pin weight other than stripped of all appliances and related stuff. My challenge will be where do I add the pin weight. I think most will be with lead balast.

[Reddog1]

JIMNLIN wrote:
My 1st 5th wheel rv trailer was a 26' rear bath '84 model on a '82 2500 chevy long bed. Back then extended pin boxes was rare. Most pin boxes had the pin actually behind the front over hang from a few inches to 18" or so on units like some of the high dollar HH II 5ers. The zero pin box on my unit had the front of the trailer 3" high from level (or 6" difference in front to rear).
I couldn't fully open my tail gate so I bought a 24" extended pin box that leveled the trailer which fixed my nose high problem and now I could open the tail gate. Having pulled the unit before and after the only difference was I now had more in bed wind turbulence.

Having hauled for a living I kept scale axle weight tickets in all my trucks. There was no weight changes on the trucks rear axle.

JMO but the hitch location on your one ton drw truck could be placed anywhere and not unload the truck front axle enough to matter.
Now if the trailer had 3k-4k pin weight then thats enough weight to seriously unload the trucks front axle.

Check out a longer pin box for that small 5er....or the Anderson or the same as PullRite ISR Superlite series hitch.

I had a similar experience when I first got my trailer. I wanted more distance between the truck and trailer. I installed a Popup Ind Fifth Wheel Kingpin Extension. I lowered my hitch plate to level the trailer. I had only pulled the trailer about 50 miles, so really can't compare towing with or without. It did give me the clearence I wanted. I too believe the hitch (present trailer) location on my one ton drw truck could be placed anywhere and not unload the truck front axle enough to matter.

[Reddog1]

john&bet, the trailer is absolutely level when hitched. You are correct, there is very little space in front of the trailer axles to load much weight in the way of goods. There is only the walkway. I loaded nothing behind the axles when weighing or camping with one exception.

The first trip I had the aluminum box in the rear loaded with oak firewood. That is the only time I have had an issue with sway. It is fair to say on this trailer, the pin is so light the oak definately had a negative effect on the pin weight.

With the exception of my first trip, my camping gear goes in the Aluminium box behind the cab of the truck, this includes the Honda and extra propane. Ice chest, chairs, and some other stuff goes in the back seat of the Quad Cab. The trailer spare is secured in the bed, between the hitch and Aluminum box. The gas can is strapped inside the spare.

This photo is taken with the truck and trailer in at gas station with a level surface. I have put a level on this trailer in several places, and it proves level. I also confirmed this through weighing. As I recall, the axle weights are within about 20 lbs of each other.



This is the back of the trailer. The end of the counter is above the rear axle. It is only the wife and I, no kids or dogs.




This is looking forward. The stove top is over the front axle.

[valhalla360]

Reddog1 wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

Reddog1 wrote:
I prefer not to go into any more details than I have, simply because I don't see where it adds to the discussion. I have given the weights, and while they could be plus or minus 20 lbs, I doubt it.

valhalla360 wrote:
Unfortunately, it is very relevant as the numbers you are claiming don't match logically.

The weight numbers I posted are what they are. You omitted part of my response which changed its meaning.

"Old-Biscuit, with all due respect, there are several ways to weigh a truck and trailer. I prefer not to go into any more details than I have, simply because I don't see where it adds to the discussion. I have given the weights, and while they could be plus or minus 20 lbs, I doubt it."

I am not sure what you belive they don't logically match.

valhalla360 wrote:
NADA says your trailer should be around 3300lbs empty (twin axle variant). I also looked at similar size trailers (not many 5th wheels that size) and they were all similar empty weights.

I don't know how many 1987 Alpenlite 19 5th wheels NADA has weighed to base their numbers on. I don't know what they consider is "empty".

I have one 1987 Alpenlite 19, my definition of "empty" is with appliances, propane, and equipped ready for camping minus personal gear.

valhalla360 wrote:
If the axles are rated at 2820, that means the max weight of the trailer fully loaded is 5640lbs. If you are scaling out empty at over 5000lbs, that means there is only a cargo capacity of around 600lbs which is crazy low. I would expect something on the order of 1500-2000lb cargo capacity.

I believe there are a couple of things incorrect here. The first is the how we all have been interpreting the data on the brochure sheet. I think the Gross Axle Weight under Tandem Axle of 2820 is the weight of the entire trailer with two axles, no fridge, no propane, no water neater, no furnace, no awning, no spare, no rear stabilizers, no A/C, and no Battery. Simply stated, a stripped down trailer.

Notice Gross Axle Weight under Single Axle of 2250 the weight of the entire trailer with one axle is 195 lbs less than the Tandem Axle.

My conclusion is the Alpenlite Brochure does say at some point it hat a Gross Hitch Weight (Pin Weight) of 500 lbs (19% or 17.7%). It also suggest to me the data is almost useless unless the trailer is to be used "empty. I will add, I have absolutely no confidence in NADA'S numbers.

valhalla360 wrote:
Something is clearly wrong with the numbers and if the numbers you are reporting are correct, you are way low on pin weight.

I initially thought something was wrong with the numbers. I weighed my setup two times about a week apart. Finally, a friend suggested the Alpenlite Brochure weights could be like those on truck campers, "dry weight". The decal on my TC says 1900 lbs, it actually weighs 3800 lbs (w/hydraulic jacks). I think the numbers are correct but we were interpreting them incorrectly.

valhalla360 wrote:
My best guess is the 500lb on the sticker is the pin weight when empty which would correspond to around 18%. A bit light but if they are figuring your average 1/2ton is oversized, they may figure they can get away with being slightly on the light side.

I agree with this, but only if "empty" means no fridge, no propane, no water neater, no furnace, no awning, no spare, no rear stabilizers, no A/C, and no Battery. Simply stated, a stripped down trailer.

valhalla360 wrote:
360lb pin weight on a 5000lb fully loaded may result in sway issues because it is extreme. It may not happen in all conditions but I would hate to find out taking a corner.

This is a concern, although it has not been a problem in over 900 miles. I had one experience where I had a slight say between 70 and 75 mph while passing (long story). The box on back was full of oak which probably eliminated the pin weight. This is before I weighed everything.

I will be removing the box and the steel it is mounted on. I will move the two propane cyls from the rear to the front, and mount the spare on the pin box over the pin. I am considering moving the 33 gallon water tank from just behind the axles to over the axles. There really is not much more that can be moved. I could add lead ballast in the pin box.

valhalla360 wrote:
As far as getting manufacturers to say it's OK to drive with the hitch in the slid back position, good luck. There is no benefit to them approving this regardless. If you can't do a full structural analysis, just don't. It's not just you that could be in danger if something fails at 60mph.

This is a separate issue from the pin weight. Like many things we encounter in life, things are done a certain way because they have always been done that way. I am sure there is a limit on how much weight you could put behind the axle, and I am sure each hitch is different. I am a little disappointed that the only input I get on the subject is don't do it, without any reason why.

Let's say I get my 5000 lb trailer pin weight to 500 lbs. What would be wrong with mounting a third rail in my truck bed that would allow me to put my hitch in front or behind the axle?

How you measured is very relevant as there appears to be something wrong with the numbers. Since we don't have access to your rig to measure ourselves, the only way we can figure out if there was a mistake is by understanding how you measured it. I was well aware of the full comment but it doesn't change anything, hence it was omitted.

As far as NADA, they take the manufacturers numbers. Maybe they are off by that much but I doubt it, since it would make the trailer almost overweight empty. Empty weights are simply numbers that the manufacturer can provide since they don't know how much stuff you will put in the RV. That's why they are provided.

You've clearly got it all figured out and don't want input, so you do what you want. You've been warned but clearly don't want to follow it. You might get away with it or you might not.

Edit: I just noticed you mentioned having a sway issues with this setup. That suggests bad things were going on as 5th wheels just don't sway. The oversize truck may have got you out of it that time but in similar conditions it might not.

[JIMNLIN]

My 1st 5th wheel rv trailer was a 26' rear bath '84 model on a '82 2500 chevy long bed. Back then extended pin boxes was rare. Most pin boxes had the pin actually behind the front over hang from a few inches to 18" or so on units like some of the high dollar HH II 5ers. The zero pin box on my unit had the front of the trailer 3" high from level (or 6" difference in front to rear).
I couldn't fully open my tail gate so I bought a 24" extended pin box that leveled the trailer which fixed my nose high problem and now I could open the tail gate. Having pulled the unit before and after the only difference was I now had more in bed wind turbulence.

Having hauled for a living I kept scale axle weight tickets in all my trucks. There was no weight changes on the trucks rear axle.

JMO but the hitch location on your one ton drw truck could be placed anywhere and not unload the truck front axle enough to matter.
Now if the trailer had 3k-4k pin weight then thats enough weight to seriously unload the trucks front axle.

Check out a longer pin box for that small 5er....or the Anderson or the same as PullRite ISR Superlite series hitch.

[john_bet]

Barney S, I have a question/comment on this issue. How much weight has been shifted to the rear due to attitude of his trailer while hitched up? It looks like it could be quite a bit. It looks like he has very little space in front of the trailer axles to load much weight in the way of goods so a lot would go aft. Just my observations of his picture. I am not a weight and balance expert. Just an old retired farm boy and aircraft mech.

[BarneyS]

I agree 100% with what you just posted. 🙂 My concern was with your low pin weight and what could happen if you moved the pin to the rear of your truck. It would act very similar to a standard travel trailer and I know how those react to low tongue weights. No reason for a 5th wheel to be any different if mounted in a similar position.

I have personally seen a small two wheel utility trailer yank a full sized pickup off the road because it started to sway badly from improper loading of boards purchased at Home Depot.
Ended up turning over the trailer, spewing boards all over, and leaving the pickup in the ditch.
Barney

[Reddog1]

I agree with this in theory Barney, but I think it also has a lot to do with just how much weight is involved and how far it is behind the axle. I agree it would have an effect on handling, negative, but to what degree.

I am of the belief that a short bed standard cab 2WD gas engine 1500 would handle differently than a long bed Quad Cab 4WD DRW diesel 3500 with the same load.

[BarneyS]

Reddog1 wrote:
Snip...This is a separate issue from the pin weight. Like many things we encounter in life, things are done a certain way because they have always been done that way. I am sure there is a limit on how much weight you could put behind the axle, and I am sure each hitch is different. I am a little disappointed that the only input I get on the subject is don't do it, without any reason why.

Let's say I get my 5000 lb trailer pin weight to 500 lbs. What would be wrong with mounting a third rail in my truck bed that would allow me to put my hitch in front or behind the axle?

I seem to remember telling you early in the thread exactly why you shouldn't do it. If you mount or slide your hitch very far behind the rear axle you are going to unload the front axle of the truck just as a bumper pull does. This will reduce your steering ability and the stability of the vehicle. The trailer will have an increased ability to affect the direction of travel of the truck.

Mounting it in front of the axle very far will increase the likelihood of contact between the cab of the truck and the front of the trailer. In addition, you will make maneuvering more difficult because the trailer will react too slow to truck maneuvers.
Barney

[Reddog1]

valhalla360 wrote:

Reddog1 wrote:
I prefer not to go into any more details than I have, simply because I don't see where it adds to the discussion. I have given the weights, and while they could be plus or minus 20 lbs, I doubt it.

valhalla360 wrote:
Unfortunately, it is very relevant as the numbers you are claiming don't match logically.

The weight numbers I posted are what they are. You omitted part of my response which changed its meaning.

"Old-Biscuit, with all due respect, there are several ways to weigh a truck and trailer. I prefer not to go into any more details than I have, simply because I don't see where it adds to the discussion. I have given the weights, and while they could be plus or minus 20 lbs, I doubt it."

I am not sure what you belive they don't logically match.

valhalla360 wrote:
NADA says your trailer should be around 3300lbs empty (twin axle variant). I also looked at similar size trailers (not many 5th wheels that size) and they were all similar empty weights.

I don't know how many 1987 Alpenlite 19 5th wheels NADA has weighed to base their numbers on. I don't know what they consider is "empty".

I have one 1987 Alpenlite 19, my definition of "empty" is with appliances, propane, and equipped ready for camping minus personal gear.

valhalla360 wrote:
If the axles are rated at 2820, that means the max weight of the trailer fully loaded is 5640lbs. If you are scaling out empty at over 5000lbs, that means there is only a cargo capacity of around 600lbs which is crazy low. I would expect something on the order of 1500-2000lb cargo capacity.

I believe there are a couple of things incorrect here. The first is the how we all have been interpreting the data on the brochure sheet. I think the Gross Axle Weight under Tandem Axle of 2820 is the weight of the entire trailer with two axles, no fridge, no propane, no water neater, no furnace, no awning, no spare, no rear stabilizers, no A/C, and no Battery. Simply stated, a stripped down trailer.

Notice Gross Axle Weight under Single Axle of 2250 the weight of the entire trailer with one axle is 195 lbs less than the Tandem Axle.

My conclusion is the Alpenlite Brochure does say at some point it hat a Gross Hitch Weight (Pin Weight) of 500 lbs (19% or 17.7%). It also suggest to me the data is almost useless unless the trailer is to be used "empty. I will add, I have absolutely no confidence in NADA'S numbers.

valhalla360 wrote:
Something is clearly wrong with the numbers and if the numbers you are reporting are correct, you are way low on pin weight.

I initially thought something was wrong with the numbers. I weighed my setup two times about a week apart. Finally, a friend suggested the Alpenlite Brochure weights could be like those on truck campers, "dry weight". The decal on my TC says 1900 lbs, it actually weighs 3800 lbs (w/hydraulic jacks). I think the numbers are correct but we were interpreting them incorrectly.

valhalla360 wrote:
My best guess is the 500lb on the sticker is the pin weight when empty which would correspond to around 18%. A bit light but if they are figuring your average 1/2ton is oversized, they may figure they can get away with being slightly on the light side.

I agree with this, but only if "empty" means no fridge, no propane, no water neater, no furnace, no awning, no spare, no rear stabilizers, no A/C, and no Battery. Simply stated, a stripped down trailer.

valhalla360 wrote:
360lb pin weight on a 5000lb fully loaded may result in sway issues because it is extreme. It may not happen in all conditions but I would hate to find out taking a corner.

This is a concern, although it has not been a problem in over 900 miles. I had one experience where I had a slight say between 70 and 75 mph while passing (long story). The box on back was full of oak which probably eliminated the pin weight. This is before I weighed everything.

I will be removing the box and the steel it is mounted on. I will move the two propane cyls from the rear to the front, and mount the spare on the pin box over the pin. I am considering moving the 33 gallon water tank from just behind the axles to over the axles. There really is not much more that can be moved. I could add lead ballast in the pin box.

valhalla360 wrote:
As far as getting manufacturers to say it's OK to drive with the hitch in the slid back position, good luck. There is no benefit to them approving this regardless. If you can't do a full structural analysis, just don't. It's not just you that could be in danger if something fails at 60mph.

This is a separate issue from the pin weight. Like many things we encounter in life, things are done a certain way because they have always been done that way. I am sure there is a limit on how much weight you could put behind the axle, and I am sure each hitch is different. I am a little disappointed that the only input I get on the subject is don't do it, without any reason why.

Let's say I get my 5000 lb trailer pin weight to 500 lbs. What would be wrong with mounting a third rail in my truck bed that would allow me to put my hitch in front or behind the axle?

[valhalla360]

Reddog1 wrote:
I prefer not to go into any more details than I have, simply because I don't see where it adds to the discussion. I have given the weights, and while they could be plus or minus 20 lbs, I doubt it.

Unfortunately, it is very relevant as the numbers you are claiming don't match logically.

NADA says your trailer should be around 3300lbs empty (twin axle variant). I also looked at similar size trailers (not many 5th wheels that size) and they were all similar empty weights.

If the axles are rated at 2820, that means the max weight of the trailer fully loaded is 5640lbs. If you are scaling out empty at over 5000lbs, that means there is only a cargo capacity of around 600lbs which is crazy low. I would expect something on the order of 1500-2000lb cargo capacity.

Something is clearly wrong with the numbers and if the numbers you are reporting are correct, you are way low on pin weight.

My best guess is the 500lb on the sticker is the pin weight when empty which would correspond to around 18%. A bit light but if they are figuring your average 1/2ton is oversized, they may figure they can get away with being slightly on the light side.

360lb pin weight on a 5000lb fully loaded may result in sway issues because it is extreme. It may not happen in all conditions but I would hate to find out taking a corner.

As far as getting manufacturers to say it's OK to drive with the hitch in the slid back position, good luck. There is no benefit to them approving this regardless. If you can't do a full structural analysis, just don't. It's not just you that could be in danger if something fails at 60mph.

[Reddog1]

newman fulltimer wrote:
1. why extend a extended pin box ?

I did not extend an extended pin box. I extended a pin box 10 inches. In my opinion, the truck bumper was too close to the trailer. The added 10" took care of that.

newman fulltimer wrote:
now you are nose high puts less weight on the truck

How do you come to this conclusion?

newman fulltimer wrote:
2. why a slidder hitch in a long bed ?

Short answer, because I want one. Several advantages for my needs.

newman fulltimer wrote:
its about geometry and obvious the setup is not right

Obvious to whom and based on what criteria?

[Reddog1]

Butch50 wrote:
Wayne,

I don't think you would have any problem. Heck how many people here have loaded 400# in the very rear of their truck and driven with them without any problems. With your truck I wouldn't see that the truck would even squat at all. I think the main reason for the warnings is with heavier trailers and the hitch in the rear position is it could cause a lot of sway. Your light trailer is not going to cause any sway. Also it might be a braking problem with a heaver trailer that the hitch is not built for the force pushing forward on the locking device. Where the slider in the front/travel position it is locked into the front/beefer portion of the hitch but again I don't know if with your trailer if this is a concern.

I have seen your posts on the TC forum when I carried a TCer so I know you are inventive so look for a way to make a brace to make sure that the slider is locked so it can't slide forward in an emergency braking condition and I wouldn't see any problem.

Butch

Thanks for your encouragement. I too think the lighter the trailer, the less critical the sway due to tongue weight. There is a limit as to just how light it can be, and I think I am there now. I am considering putting lead in the pin box for ballast, maybe 200 plus lbs. That would bring the pin weight up to about 560 lbs. May even add a bit more.

It I do get a slider, and two with it in the back position, I cannot see how even 500 lbs behind the axle would make any difference. For the concern on braking, I probably would use the same concept used to secure a sliding door. Drop au channel on each side to prevent slider movement, secured with pins.

[newman_fulltime]

1. why extend a extended pin box ? now you are nose high puts less weight on the truck
2. why a slidder hitch in a long bed ? its about geometry and obvious the setup is not right