How Common is a 4WD Class C?

[BurbMan]

We are thinking about selling the TT...we love the space when it's set up, but it's a lot to drag around. Now that we're older and mostly travel alone or with another couple, it would be great to be more nimble. Towing the TT is like driving a semi, you can't just "stop along the way", what/where we can stop is always contingent about "can we get the TT in there".

So that's the thinking about a C, now the 4WD part....One of the reasons we always had a TT was camping on the beach, but 4WD is required. There are a lot of beach fishing spots here on LI that don't allow camping, but they do allow truck campers, 4WD vans, etc. No overnite camping, but you have a nice bathroom, a place to change, nap, have lunch, or just get put of the sun for a few mins.

So after hours of discussion, we are thinking that a "smaller" C with 4WD would fit the bill. How many of these things are built with 4WD? Has anybody converted a Class C to 4WD?

[garyhaupt]

rjstractor wrote:

garyhaupt wrote:
See? I get going. The name Quigley is a most sought after brand. Thing of it is..they don't build with US sourced parts. They build with off-shore, esoteric parts. Try getting THAT transfer case or transmission fixed. You want a shop what uses Dana parts. Go to a scrap yard and buy what you just busted. Ask me how I know.

What's the real story on their drivetrain parts? According to their website they use the stock transmission and transfer case sourced from F-series pickups. It says they use a Magna transfer case, which is foreign owned (from Canada), but basically use to be known as New Process, which most OEMs have used just about forever.

You are quite on point..I was 'told' that that is what Quigley does. I do not 'know' thru first hand knowledge.


Gary

[rjstractor]

garyhaupt wrote:
See? I get going. The name Quigley is a most sought after brand. Thing of it is..they don't build with US sourced parts. They build with off-shore, esoteric parts. Try getting THAT transfer case or transmission fixed. You want a shop what uses Dana parts. Go to a scrap yard and buy what you just busted. Ask me how I know.

What's the real story on their drivetrain parts? According to their website they use the stock transmission and transfer case sourced from F-series pickups. It says they use a Magna transfer case, which is foreign owned (from Canada), but basically use to be known as New Process, which most OEMs have used just about forever.

[memtb]

pnichols, Will likely do that to our 450 chassis class c as well, as every little bit helps. We may have to wait a while though, as we’ve only had it 17 months....and the previous owner had “just” put on a set of new Bridgestones.

[pnichols]

garyhaupt wrote:
Tires...now there's a topic. No tire shop here will change my tires to larger ones. The ones I have are the ones designed for an E350. They look small when seen from the side..but that is what is supposed to be on. I 'could' buy and install myself but doing so throws all the gearing and electronics out.

Gary ... interesting concerns, but maybe not ones to worry about.

Here's a typical tire sourcing website that shows at least the four tire sizes of 215/75R16, 225/75R16, 235/75R16, and 245/75R16 being commonly used on the Ford Econoline-Series vans: https://tiresize.com/tires/Ford/Econoline/

I believe that many - if not all - Ford E-Series based Class C motorhomes come from the builders with 225/75R16 size tires on them. Of course retrofitting with the 235 and 245 sizes would raise the whole motorhome a bit to provide more ground clearance for sand or rough road off-highway use ... but use of these larger diameter tires may increase the chance of sidewall rubbing in the rear duals unless spacers are used in between the dual tire rims. Also, use of these larger diameter tires would probably be best on only the E450 chassis, as it's lower ratio rear differential would help to counter the loss of tire twisting power (torque) from the larger diameter tires.

On my E450, I went a different route to increase tire diameter a bit without having to be concerned with rear dual inter-tire spacing. I used a tire size not shown on the chart - 215/85R16. This tire is taller (larger diameter) than the common 225/75R16 Ford E-Series tire, but just a little bit narrower. Hence, I get a taller tire for more ground clearance without having to use spacers in between the rear dually tire rims. I'm not concerned with the slightly narrower tread as I'm not into soft beach sand driving/camping. BTW, a narrower tire in the front helps provide a more solid track in the steering on paved surfaces, as well as helping to punch through sleet, snow, and mud layers to reach the solid surface below on paved roadways.

My speedometer reads about 1 MPH slower - which is of no concern - while at the same time my gas mileage is improved slightly over a stock E450 because overall drivetrain gearing ratio is moved to a lower ratio via the larger diameter tires off-setting the 4:56 ratio of the E450's differential.

By using Load Range E, Mud & Snow, 215/85R16 size tires on our E450 24 foot Class C I gain only about 0.6 inch of ground clearance everywhere - but every little bit helps and the DW didn't want too much of a climb up into the cab.

[garyhaupt]

More of my disclaimers...I can't speak for anyone but myself.

Mine was built by a top notch 4x4 shop in Kamloops. Kamloops Light Truck, Clydesdale. Front and rear both have stabilizers and all bolted on, not welded.

Fortunately mine does not have poor handling. What it is not, is an RV for a novice driver. Those of you that have driven that highway in Utah..12? or highway #1 in California or the Mogee Dugway in Utah? That is where this RV shines. On an Interstate? It sucks.

It always..always, comes down to what can a user afford. If I had really deep pockets, I would buy a brand new diesel C and have it converted by a the guys in Kamloops. And trim it out just like this one is. For the ones that have 'normal' pockets? Get a C that you like..in good working order and have a shop do the conversion. It's 20,000 rather than 200,000. And it will take you anywhere you want to get to. One other thing about having a shop convert one? You don't ever worry about what roads you travel. Put $200,000 into it? Never leave the pavement.

See? I get going. The name Quigley is a most sought after brand. Thing of it is..they don't build with US sourced parts. They build with off-shore, esoteric parts. Try getting THAT transfer case or transmission fixed. You want a shop what uses Dana parts. Go to a scrap yard and buy what you just busted. Ask me how I know.


Gary

[ron_dittmer]

You guys with 4x4 E-series motor homes. Did your 4x4 conversion include heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars with the conversion? If not, that would contribute to poor handling.

CLICK HERE to watch a nicely done video on a Quigley conversion for a Phoenix Cruiser prep'd chassis. It is equipped with heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars. The video also includes a brief explanation what is done to stretch the wheel base on the given example, PC model 2552. A nice picture slide show completes the video.

[garyhaupt]

Doing this to avoid quote after quote after....

"Gary ... great comments above regarding your RV'ing style. It's very similar to ours.

However, they raised a question: Was your 6" inch lift necessary for mechanical reasons - or just done because the installers assumed the vehicle owner would want some amount of lift for off-highway clearance?

I've often wondered if 4WD could be installed on a Ford E350/E450 Class C with about no lift? For off-highway clearance I prefer more ground clearance for only the suspension and driveline components - not the whole coach above them. As such, on our 2WD E450 Class C I merely use larger diameter tires than stock so as to raise the all too important suspension and driveline components but hopefully not increase the center of gravity of the whole vehicle too, too much. The Ford E350/E450 vans have more than enough fender clearance and steering mechanism clearance to permit larger diameter tires. I've used this same approach over the years on a Dodge van I converted into a camper and on my currernt GMC 4X4 pickup.

The former Army Hummer is a great example of this - low to the ground "coach", but high off the ground bottom-side mechanical stuff."
--------------------------------------------------
Phil..I bought the truck already done so I can't really say why the 6" lift. I can say tho, that without that clearance, there are many places I coudn't get to because of the rear overhang. As it is...my armour plate has lots of shiny scrapes. And of course, the running gear is still at the same level. I have to drive accordingly..not to get the pumpkin damaged or rear running gear. The thing about company trucks (like Hummers)..Army or power utilities...they pay for the damage, not the driver.

Tires...now there's a topic. No tire shop here will change my tires to larger ones. The ones I have are the ones designed for an E350. They look small when seen from the side..but that is what is supposed to be on. I 'could' buy and install myself but doing so throws all the gearing and electronics out. I will maybe look at a tire with a bit of a wider stance, next time I buy. I also would like to be able to run spacers but cannot. The E350 does not provide enough of a gap between tires to do that. Yes..I checked with a couple manufacturers.

You know how it is, Phil..always looking for a new add-on, but I have never, ever, had a more able RV. I am still trying to work up the nerve to try the beaches in S Washington this winter. I keep looking at Hill Towing video's on YouTube and figure..nu uhhh.



Gary

[pnichols]

garyhaupt wrote:

ron.dittmer wrote:
To the OP BurpMan,

Having a spending limit of $30,000 is going to be a challenge to find a 4x4 motor home in very good condition. I advise to search weekly Craigslist nationwide, RV Trader, RVT, Camping World, and rvUSA. Just maybe you will get lucky and find one in decent condition, in your price range.

I also advise to be careful when shopping for a 4x4 motor home. If the previous owner or owners explored hard with it, you might be buying a hidden twisted frame or a twisted house with breached seam work. Don't buy one in the blind. Inspect it very carefully. If things like doors and seams don't align right, then don't buy it at any price.

Just about every motor home is built to be driven on reasonable surfaces. Traversing rocks and such can twist the house rendering it a bad purchase. Earth Roamer and a select few others are built for traversing rocks, not the majority of motor homes. A typical motor home with a 4x4 conversion is meant for much lesser challenging trails and sandy beaches as your planned use.

Phoenix Cruiser 4x4s are better constructed than your average motor home. They will hold up better to 4x4 trails, but they too will have limitations with regards to rock traversing. If you find a PC 4x4 cream puff, you might want to look twice at it and consider increasing your spending budget. PC 4x4s come in 21 to 31 foot lengths so there is potentially a wide range of flavors in the used 4x4 market. But PC 4x4s in general are uncommon. All of them will have the Quigley conversion.

One thing that bothers me about any 4x4 conversion is the high stance. The ground clearance is great for 4x4-ing, but what about all other driving? Highway driving is less than ideal in a normal motor home. What is it with the rig raised up so much higher?

I can't speak for anyone else but myself and yes, it requires a major adjustment to ones driving habits. This truck is a hands-on driving experience. It has a 6" lift and I have it on snowflake rated tires all year round. That gives me the grip that I don't need on pavement but sure do when I am up some muddy, sandy trail. And I have never broken a dish, till just the other day when entering a gas station with a rounded curb and I just got it at the wrong angle and a plate was demo'd on the counter. A whipping action. It does not shine cornering at higher than posted speeds. If the front tire hits the soft shoulder, it gets wicked really quickly. With the higher centre of gravity, the driver has to actually drive.


Now..I am not your 'normal' RV pilot. I drove city buses for 37 years and no longer have a need for speed. I am the guy ahead of the pack..pulling off whenever I need to..allowing drivers to overtake. I run at 95k...just under 60 mph, I think. My fuel sweet spot. I poke around...take photographs and just hang out. This 4x4 is built for that. And if that is the way someone wants to travel? Then these things are a dream come true. If a person is one to hi-ball and drive hard? This is not the type of RV for them. This is adventure RV'ing.

Gary Haupt

Gary ... great comments above regarding your RV'ing style. It's very similar to ours.

However, they raised a question: Was your 6" inch lift necessary for mechanical reasons - or just done because the installers assumed the vehicle owner would want some amount of lift for off-highway clearance?

I've often wondered if 4WD could be installed on a Ford E350/E450 Class C with about no lift? For off-highway clearance I prefer more ground clearance for only the suspension and driveline components - not the whole coach above them. As such, on our 2WD E450 Class C I merely use larger diameter tires than stock so as to raise the all too important suspension and driveline components but hopefully not increase the center of gravity of the whole vehicle too, too much. The Ford E350/E450 vans have more than enough fender clearance and steering mechanism clearance to permit larger diameter tires. I've used this same approach over the years on a Dodge van I converted into a camper and on my currernt GMC 4X4 pickup.

The former Army Hummer is a great example of this - low to the ground "coach", but high off the ground bottom-side mechanical stuff.

[garyhaupt]

ron.dittmer wrote:
To the OP BurpMan,

Having a spending limit of $30,000 is going to be a challenge to find a 4x4 motor home in very good condition. I advise to search weekly Craigslist nationwide, RV Trader, RVT, Camping World, and rvUSA. Just maybe you will get lucky and find one in decent condition, in your price range.

I also advise to be careful when shopping for a 4x4 motor home. If the previous owner or owners explored hard with it, you might be buying a hidden twisted frame or a twisted house with breached seam work. Don't buy one in the blind. Inspect it very carefully. If things like doors and seams don't align right, then don't buy it at any price.

Just about every motor home is built to be driven on reasonable surfaces. Traversing rocks and such can twist the house rendering it a bad purchase. Earth Roamer and a select few others are built for traversing rocks, not the majority of motor homes. A typical motor home with a 4x4 conversion is meant for much lesser challenging trails and sandy beaches as your planned use.

Phoenix Cruiser 4x4s are better constructed than your average motor home. They will hold up better to 4x4 trails, but they too will have limitations with regards to rock traversing. If you find a PC 4x4 cream puff, you might want to look twice at it and consider increasing your spending budget. PC 4x4s come in 21 to 31 foot lengths so there is potentially a wide range of flavors in the used 4x4 market. But PC 4x4s in general are uncommon. All of them will have the Quigley conversion.

One thing that bothers me about any 4x4 conversion is the high stance. The ground clearance is great for 4x4-ing, but what about all other driving? Highway driving is less than ideal in a normal motor home. What is it with the rig raised up so much higher?

I can't speak for anyone else but myself and yes, it requires a major adjustment to ones driving habits. This truck is a hands-on driving experience. It has a 6" lift and I have it on snowflake rated tires all year round. That gives me the grip that I don't need on pavement but sure do when I am up some muddy, sandy trail. And I have never broken a dish, till just the other day when entering a gas station with a rounded curb and I just got it at the wrong angle and a plate was demo'd on the counter. A whipping action. It does not shine cornering at higher than posted speeds. If the front tire hits the soft shoulder, it gets wicked really quickly. With the higher centre of gravity, the driver has to actually drive.


Now..I am not your 'normal' RV pilot. I drove city buses for 37 years and no longer have a need for speed. I am the guy ahead of the pack..pulling off whenever I need to..allowing drivers to overtake. I run at 95k...just under 60 mph, I think. My fuel sweet spot. I poke around...take photographs and just hang out. This 4x4 is built for that. And if that is the way someone wants to travel? Then these things are a dream come true. If a person is one to hi-ball and drive hard? This is not the type of RV for them. This is adventure RV'ing.


Gary Haupt

[ron_dittmer]

To the OP BurpMan,

Having a spending limit of $30,000 is going to be a challenge to find a 4x4 motor home in very good condition. I advise to search weekly Craigslist nationwide, RV Trader, RVT, Camping World, and rvUSA. Just maybe you will get lucky and find one in decent condition, in your price range.

I also advise to be careful when shopping for a 4x4 motor home. If the previous owner or owners explored hard with it, you might be buying a hidden twisted frame or a twisted house with breached seam work. Don't buy one in the blind. Inspect it very carefully. If things like doors and seams don't align right, then don't buy it at any price.

Just about every motor home is built to be driven on reasonable surfaces. Traversing rocks and such can twist the house rendering it a bad purchase. Earth Roamer and a select few others are built for traversing rocks, not the majority of motor homes. A typical motor home with a 4x4 conversion is meant for much lesser challenging trails and sandy beaches as your planned use.

Phoenix Cruiser 4x4s are better constructed than your average motor home. They will hold up better to 4x4 trails, but they too will have limitations with regards to rock traversing. If you find a PC 4x4 cream puff, you might want to look twice at it and consider increasing your spending budget. PC 4x4s come in 21 to 31 foot lengths so there is potentially a wide range of flavors in the used 4x4 market. But PC 4x4s in general are uncommon. All of them will have the Quigley conversion.

One thing that bothers me about any 4x4 conversion is the high stance. The ground clearance is great for 4x4-ing, but what about all other driving? Highway driving is less than ideal in a normal motor home. What is it with the rig raised up so much higher?

[memtb]

If I could find about 15 grand in the couch cushions......ours would be 4 wheel drive. “If” I found 30 grand......it would be a diesel, 4 wheel drive! :B

[rjstractor]

garyhaupt wrote:
I think it is important to deal with an issue..that of the rear of the unit dragging when exiting or entering a steep angled river/creek bed or even stumps and rocks. Referred to as the 'angle of departure'. When one sees the sharply angles read body of European and Australian rigs..where the body comes right up after the rear tires?

What people do then, is to have a sheet of aluminum installed underneath to protect whatever is under the frame and house. In my case, the tanks. Most 4x4's have skid plates installed to protected the important bits.like transfer cases and transmission.

There is so much advantage to having a 4x4 conversion done. I wouldn't do it for a beach only. But...for deserts, for mountains, for snow covered roads..and I don't mean off-road travel, but those really neat places you want to get to..and out of an abundance of caution, don't.

A person does not need to spend the huge bucks...there are a couple conversion shops that will convert your C to whatever it is you want for about 20,000. A lot? Yes...but nothing like the price tag for a new anything.

As an alternative to 4x4...look at having a limited slip differential put in. Get it lifted and a winch and you are well on your way to some pretty neat traveling.

Gary Haupt

I agree on the ground clearance issue- when I had a larger class C I would run into clearance issues long before traction problems. I mostly stuck to pavement, but on the occasions that I drove my rig on snow, dirt or gravel I never spun a wheel. I attribute that to the fact it carried roughly 9000 of its 13500 pounds on the rear axle. Rear departure angle was terrible.

[Chum_lee]

BurbMan wrote:
No worries, and always good to go in the sand with a buddy for insurance. I can always drop the TT if need be, stakes are higher with a C. I posted some generic pics but i have plenty of my rig on the beach. There are more than a few guys with C's on the beach here, not sure how the beaches are up by you.

Anyway i appreciate your input. My conclusuon right now is that I meed to find a 4WD rig, it doesnt pay to have a conversion done on a rig in my price range. I wish I could afford one like yours or like the one in the pic I posted.

If price is an issue, start here:

https://salem.craigslist.org/rvs/d/project-4x4-ford-1-ton-all/6713589522.html

It's from another currently active thread. As the ad says, it just needs "a little work" but it's available, the price is right, and, its a 4WD.

Chum lee

[garyhaupt]

pnichols wrote:

Photomike wrote:
I would like to get a good set of chains for the Class C for emergency use in place of 4x4 for muddy/ slushie /snowy roads but most Class C's state no chains.

Mike ... what's up with "but most Class C's state no chains"?

I've carried chains for our E450 24 foot Class C for years ... just in case. I'd put them on the outside rear tires if ever caught in heavy snow on mountain passes. The chains would probably even help some in certain desert road conditions when we go out there looking for rocks.

Is there some reason that chains on the outside rear tires wouldn't be recommended?

Chains...could have saved me a tonne of money. But...the house sat so low over the rears that I couldn't even get my hands up the sidewalls. THAT is what settled me on the truck I now have.

Gary