Tongue weight, revisted

[allcool]

My TH has a 13,000gvwr sticker, but in reality probably closer to 15,000 loaded. Thank God for 6 Michelin Ribs...

Did an experiment a couple years ago with reducing my tongue weight to a minimum. Still was probably close to 1700lbs, but made the handling very bad. With excess sway and the need to constantly correct steering to stay in lane with any little gust or a passing vehicle.

Last weekend took my TH back to Phx from Glamis for off season covered storage, about a 218 mile trip.
Loaded my toys over the axles, centered, with nothing behind the axles. Kept about 100gallons of water in the tanks, all in front or over the axles. Full propane up front and holding tanks all empty. All tools/stuff/supplies/etc, everything, either over axles or in front of axles. Tongue weight came in at 3180lbs.

In the past, a 3180 TW would have caused me to change things up. Not any longer. Towed around the storage yard with no WD bars and the Ram3500 barely squatted down at all, still level more or less.

Had a new 2018 Ram 3500 srw crew cab to use for the trip.
The WW TH never towed this well before. Towed like a fifth wheel. No sway at at, none. No bounce at all. Going over the big no stop dips from Glamis to Blythe, around the Border patrol stop, was like no TH was behind me. No pushing/pulling/bounce of the truck or un- steady handling over those dips/whoops. It was a first, incredible.

Then on 10 going to Phx it was amazing how well it tracked at speed with no sway from passing 18wheelers. Even tried to see if at high speed it would sway. Brought it up to 80mph for a short test burst. No sway at all. Even when passing a double 18wheeler.

Some might say its all in the truck. The new Ram3500. But I have towed with them before, with sway and everything else a light a TW causes.

I am a Ford guy and own a Ford F350 Platinum. Have towed this WW with all the big 3, many times. I do like the new Ram's handling and suspension. The motor to me is not as good as the Ford power stroke engine, or the duramax engine. But realistically they all are very very good capable trucks that all can take the big TW needed to have a great handling TH.

The new found superb towing of my TH is from the big TW no doubt.

So, don't be scared of big tongue weight with this crop of new trucks.
They can take it no problem. And the big TW makes towing a pleasure.

jmo

[1L243]

allcool wrote:

souraider wrote:
Wow...3180 that is a lot. Used to tow an "07 fsc3200, while it was a pig, I always kept it under #13000. Tongue was always in the 1400-1600 range, and it did like to be at the higher end of that for towability. It towed well behind my old '06 F350 using the old school eaz-lift wdh.

The WW FSC3200 I've seen have the same sticker I do, 13,000 & 1090TW. Optimistic at best. They did have different floor plan & frame than the FSW.
Oh ya, mine is what they called a FSW3200 plus 2' as per its invoice.

Your definitely trying to address the swaying issue but it has to be something with your specific setup or we would all be running around with 3000 lbs of tongue weight.

Even with a 1850 lb rated hitch your exceeding that by 70%. I would suggest if you are going to tow with that kind of TW I would upgrade the WDH and the trucks hitch to a 3" and as heavy as you can get... Plus the A frame of the trailer should be reinforced for exceeding the manufacturers rating by 300%.

The only other thing I could suggest is experiment with Trailer height. With 15% TW try towing level if that does not work try lowering the front a couple of degrees if that does not work try raising it up a few degrees.

[allcool]

souraider wrote:
Wow...3180 that is a lot. Used to tow an "07 fsc3200, while it was a pig, I always kept it under #13000. Tongue was always in the 1400-1600 range, and it did like to be at the higher end of that for towability. It towed well behind my old '06 F350 using the old school eaz-lift wdh.

The WW FSC3200 I've seen have the same sticker I do, 13,000 & 1090TW. Optimistic at best. They did have different floor plan & frame than the FSW.
Oh ya, mine is what they called a FSW3200 plus 2' as per its invoice.

[allcool]

1L243 wrote:
That is the most TW I have ever heard on a Bumper Pull Toy Hauler. I think I would have went with the lower TW and then figured out why the trailer was not handling well. Anti sway, stiffer tires truck tires suspension??? 1700lbs TW on a 13000lb trailer with triple axles should be plenty...
Got a 17,000lb WD Sway control hitch, it works very well @ 15%TW>
LT235/85 16 Michelin RIBS are full steel carcass and steel belt LT tires that are very stiff and seem to me to be one of the best TH tires you can buy.
Just greased all the suspension bolts and checked it out in detail. All the grease hole bolts were changed out by RV Dr. Any suggestions on what to look for on the suspension..? Tires wear perfectly even, if at all.

What did they do to the frame of your trailer to make it stronger? Looking at the example of ependy pics I would think they would have to reinforce the entire frame structure.

IIRR, S Cali RV Dr. added 8 steel cross frame 2.5"boxed tube between the frame rails. Added spring perch gussets and 2" steel boxed tube frame reinforcements to the frame where the springs mount. Also added at least a couple dozen new outriggers and beefed up/reinforced the existing outriggers also. Those were the main additions out of many more things they did to beef it up, iirr.It wasn't a cheap job, took 3 days of work, I watched a lot of it.


They make super heavy rated trailer hitches but if your hitch is stock on your Ford I would guess it's more like 1250TW and 12,500 Gross..Good luck...
On my F350 2014 Ford hitch it says 1850lb. The 2018 Fords say 2450lbs with WD. Assume the 2018 Ram 3500 I just towed with says similar but didn't check..? And no, I do not like being over this rating. In the market for a new 2018-2019 F350 now.

Ya, it is a heavy beast.
WW states 1090 TW
and 13,000 gvw.
Not even close to reality.

From my experience after owning it for about 8 years now, no way possible to ever get 1090TW/13,000gvw, ever. GVW empty is 11,800, just add water and your over gvw.

From what a old WW plant manager once told me, all large TT WW TH were stickered with 13,000gvw 1090tw ratings, no mater what they actually were.
For some California code compliance reason I don't understand.

Seems to tow very very nicely at 15-20% TW. At 10%tw its a handful.At 12% TW its better but still not comfortable. At 15%tw its about the perfect compromise to me and tows great. More TW up to 20% just makes it more solid and steady towing and actually makes towing a pleasure forgetting its even back there sometimes.

Well, not sure I understand you, "figured out why" ,,, please help me figure out how to get TW lower and still tow great..?

To answer your questions, somewhere on our forum are pics and a detailed posts of what RV DR does to beef the WW frames of this era...

[souraider]

Wow...3180 that is a lot. Used to tow an "07 fsc3200, while it was a pig, I always kept it under #13000. Tongue was always in the 1400-1600 range, and it did like to be at the higher end of that for towability. It towed well behind my old '06 F350 using the old school eaz-lift wdh.

[1L243]

That is the most TW I have ever heard on a Bumper Pull Toy Hauler. I think I would have went with the lower TW and then figured out why the trailer was not handling well. Anti sway, stiffer tires truck tires suspension??? 1700lbs TW on a 13000lb trailer with triple axles should be plenty...

What did they do to the frame of your trailer to make it stronger? Looking at the example of ependy pics I would think they would have to reinforce the entire frame structure.

They make super heavy rated trailer hitches but if your hitch is stock on your Ford I would guess it's more like 1250TW and 12,500 Gross..Good luck...

[Bedlam]

BurbMan wrote:
What's the rating on the Ram's hitch receiver? I have never seen a hitch rated to handle 3180 TW. Glad you had a nice trip!

A SuperHitch Magnum handles 3000 lbs.

https://www.torklift.com/rv/superhitch/superhitch-magnum

You need the matching WDH:

https://www.torklift.com/automotive/superhitch-everest-wd-system

[allcool]

ependydad wrote:

allcool wrote:
My TH has a 13,000gvwr sticker, but in reality probably closer to 15,000 loaded. Thank God for 6 Michelin Ribs...

I thought the same thing with my bunkhouse fifth wheel. Fulltiming, I ran overloaded for about 2 years (16,800 lbs. vs. 15,800 lbs.). I had an air pinbox, replaced leaf springs, added shocks, and upgraded the wheels/tires to 17.5" commercial trailer tires.

I finally paid the piper: non-impact frame damage.

My frame buckled at the axles. The cross-member "supports" that were there twisted and broke. One basically pulled itself through the I-beam of the frame itself.

I was under axle rating (barely). And upgraded tires because I did an individual wheel weights weighing and found that 1 tire was overloaded and 2 were maxed out with the LR E Maxxis tires I had on at the time.

To each their own, but I won't run a trailer overloaded

Thanks for those pics/info.

So far not a problem for me. Hopefully S. Cali RV Dr strengthened my frame in 2012 enough that won't happen.

Was just under my TH replacing broken/missing wire ties so looked it over pretty good.

[allcool]

BurbMan wrote:
What's the rating on the Ram's hitch receiver? I have never seen a hitch rated to handle 3180 TW. Glad you had a nice trip!

Thanks, yes had a great trip and great last dune rides of the season.Was 95° out there in the middle of the day.

Good question, not sure, maybe its similar to my Ford's..?
Seems newer class 5, 2.5" receivers are in the 2500-2800lb rating on Curt's site...

I've talked to my service manager at Ford a few times about the receiver weight rating. He is an old timer that started work on the Ford assembly line, has been service manager at one of the biggest dealers here in Fl for decades now. He has never seen a 2.5" receiver bent or damaged yet. Out of all the possible max load ratings, the 2.5" receiver is probably one of the most underrated he said. He went on to explain how panic braking can put multiple times the pressure of the normal weight limit on the receiver so they have to be able to take a lot of pressure way above and beyond the rating. Maybe swaying and bouncing down the road puts more pressure on the receiver then the actual weight is what he said.

I feel much safer towing with no sway and good handling, even being over the receiver limit, then being under the receiver limit with UN-steady handling, swaying and bouncing from to low a TW but being in receiver load limits.

My personal Truck, an F350 6.7 with the 2.5" receiver has towed my WW many times for long distances and the receiver is not bent or cracked. I inspect it all the time for obvious reasons. Even had the dealer inspect it after towing my beast a long distance with 2000-3000lbs TW depending on loading. Full 160 gal of water in front of the axles makes a huge difference in my TW.

The 2018 Ram 2.5" receiver seemed very very beefy.
The pin/17,000lb hitch/and 2000lb bars all are not rated for 3000tw.
When I had the 2" hitch, pins and sleeve would get bent and stuck in the receiver. With the new 2.5" hitch that no longer happens.

Suppose its a compromise with no perfect solution other then a custom built hitch receiver. I've got many miles with the 2.5" oem Ford hitch. Have done panic stops and some anti terrorists maneuvers to avoid accidents and no bends or cracks or twisting at all on my Ford 2.5", yet. Have a riding buddy that had to replace his 2" oem Chevy receiver when it bent towing his 8000lb TH. so I do realize even a properly loaded receiver can be a problem.

Curious of your opinion, would you rather tow with sway/unsteady handling and be under the receiver published rating, or be over the rating and be towing comfortably in control.

Usually I tow at 62-65mph and with 2500 or less TW.
Just wanted to point out my personal anecdotal experience how TW effects towing drastically,and not to be scared of large TW, and like using my surline TW scale,,, lol.

My extreme TW is probably on the very extreme high end of TH TW and not something most members will be confronted with. Just trying to show that TW isn't necessarily a bad thing that should be set to minimum at all cost...

[Old-Biscuit]

BurbMan wrote:
What's the rating on the Ram's hitch receiver? I have never seen a hitch rated to handle 3180 TW. Glad you had a nice trip!

Ding ding ding....

My mind immediately went to 5th wheel pin weight....not TT tongue weight

Ram/Ford...whatever being used to tow with
How does one handle 3180# TONGUE WEIGHT?

[BurbMan]

What's the rating on the Ram's hitch receiver? I have never seen a hitch rated to handle 3180 TW. Glad you had a nice trip!

[ependydad]

allcool wrote:
Did have S Cali RV doctor do a extensive frame upgrade many years ago to insure no wall sag or frame problems ever occur. And its been solid as a rock, a very heavy rock.

Dang, I wrote all of that and now read this. I saw this post and must have skimmed past it.

Ok- so let this be a cautionary tale for others then. 😄

[ependydad]

allcool wrote:
My TH has a 13,000gvwr sticker, but in reality probably closer to 15,000 loaded. Thank God for 6 Michelin Ribs...

I thought the same thing with my bunkhouse fifth wheel. Fulltiming, I ran overloaded for about 2 years (16,800 lbs. vs. 15,800 lbs.). I had an air pinbox, replaced leaf springs, added shocks, and upgraded the wheels/tires to 17.5" commercial trailer tires.

I finally paid the piper: non-impact frame damage.

My frame buckled at the axles. The cross-member "supports" that were there twisted and broke. One basically pulled itself through the I-beam of the frame itself.

I was under axle rating (barely). And upgraded tires because I did an individual wheel weights weighing and found that 1 tire was overloaded and 2 were maxed out with the LR E Maxxis tires I had on at the time.


First look at the frame damage:




Tire was rubbing the slide bar and put a hole into it:




After removing the tire, I could see the frame issues better:




After cutting it out, you can see how flimsy and how bent up the cross-member supports are:




Here's the one that about pulled itself through the I-beam:




To each their own, but I won't run a trailer overloaded

[allcool]

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Tongue/Pin weight has always been the major factor in stable towing.

2000# OVER GVWR is a bit much
Real question is how close are you on axle/tire load ratings

Yep, I agree.
But not much of a choice since more or less empty weight is 11,800. Then add almost 2000lbs of fuel/water/propane. Then add a SxS at 1500lbs...

WW weight rating stickers from my era are not what I'd call accurate, and from what I've been told were more for legal insurance/licensing/towing issues in Cali..? whatever that means.

Did have S Cali RV doctor do a extensive frame upgrade many years ago to insure no wall sag or frame problems ever occur. And its been solid as a rock, a very heavy rock.

Ribs are 3042lb load rated each. Axles are 6000lbs each so that puts me at 18,000.

Then subtract 3180tw from the 15,000total TH weight, and should be well under the axle/tire limits. So actually the more TW takes away from the TH axles giving less load on the trailer tires/axles..? Another reason to keep TW high...lol.

[Old-Biscuit]

Tongue/Pin weight has always been the major factor in stable towing.



2000# OVER GVWR is a bit much
Real question is how close are you on axle/tire load ratings