JRscooby
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RambleOnNW wrote:
I think getting away from burning fossil fuel is necessary for human population to continue. But statements that are on their face false is not the way to educate. Solar panels will not produce unless sun shines on them. Storage is another issue, not same as production.
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
But abandoned natural gas lines back in service? And from what I understand higher pressures than originally used?
And what really makes me ask questions is do we understand the difference between a ad and press release?
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RambleOnNW
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JRscooby wrote:RambleOnNW wrote:
I think getting away from burning fossil fuel is necessary for human population to continue. But statements that are on their face false is not the way to educate. Solar panels will not produce unless sun shines on them. Storage is another issue, not same as production.
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
But abandoned natural gas lines back in service? And from what I understand higher pressures than originally used?
And what really makes me ask questions is do we understand the difference between a ad and press release?
1) Fair enough. I changed the word ‘produce’ to ‘contribute’.
2).Color of hydrogen indicates production method. It all results in the same H2, hydrogen.
3). Pipelines can be reused or relined. Europe seems ahead in that regard.
4). Hydrogen blending in a natural gas pipeline already occurs in Canada. Enbridge.
5). Hydrogen cars, vans, and large box trucks already exist. All available in Europe. Hydrogen fueling stations exist. Also the US in California.
My target is a replacement AWD vehicle that is 100% clean energy. No range loss in cold weather and fast refueling during road trips. Probably hybrid hydrogen with some plug in electric range such as 50 miles.
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Huntindog
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RambleOnNW wrote: How much do those panels produce at night. in a rainstorm. or covered with snow?
They will contribute power 24/7/365 if some of the the power is stored in batteries or is converted to green hydrogen and stored in salt domes similar to natural gas. Then converted back to electricity or piped in repurposed natural gas lines. There are 3 million miles of natural gas lines in the US; half is unused.
Green hydrogen can be stored in salt domes just like oil & gas. In fact in Delta Utah they are working on just that, a green hydrogen plant with storage in 2 salt dome caverns, room for 300 GWh of storage. And room for 98 more caverns. Compared to the US installed base of utility lithium batteries of 2 GWh. Delta plant will run a mix of natural gas and hydrogen initially in their power plant, going to 100% hydrogen by 2045.
https://www.deseret.com/2022/5/9/2304691........oject-utah-politics-renewables-delta-ipp
SoCalGas is working on mixing hydrogen with natural gas then extracting pure hydrogen from the mix with a membrane. That would make for easy initial hydrogen distribution to gas stations prior to natural gas lines transitioning to 100% hydrogen.
SoCalGas is also going to test a hydrogen fuel cell F-550 Super Duty from Ford.
https://newsroom.socalgas.com/press-rele........h-cutting-edge-f-550-super-duty-hydrogen
When one uses the word "IF", that means nothing concrete. Lots of things connected with the word "IF" never happen. a lot of them are just a dream. The things you are stating have too many ifs. Many of these so called press releases are nothing more than a publicity stunt. They have no realistic chance of success. But dreamers will always dream.
I like to deal with what is.... Not what if.
* This post was
edited 01/18/23 07:14pm by Huntindog *
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map40
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RambleOnNW wrote:JRscooby wrote:RambleOnNW wrote:
I think getting away from burning fossil fuel is necessary for human population to continue. But statements that are on their face false is not the way to educate. Solar panels will not produce unless sun shines on them. Storage is another issue, not same as production.
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
But abandoned natural gas lines back in service? And from what I understand higher pressures than originally used?
And what really makes me ask questions is do we understand the difference between a ad and press release?
1) Fair enough. I changed the word ‘produce’ to ‘contribute’.
2).Color of hydrogen indicates production method. It all results in the same H2, hydrogen.
3). Pipelines can be reused or relined. Europe seems ahead in that regard.
4). Hydrogen blending in a natural gas pipeline already occurs in Canada. Enbridge.
5). Hydrogen cars, vans, and large box trucks already exist. All available in Europe. Hydrogen fueling stations exist. Also the US in California.
My target is a replacement AWD vehicle that is 100% clean energy. No range loss in cold weather and fast refueling during road trips. Probably hybrid hydrogen with some plug in electric range such as 50 miles.
There are 106 Hydrogen stations in USA, all in California, all close to the coast except for one close to Reno.
The unused natural gas lines will need to be checked and repaired before being used. They are equipped with leak detection based of components of natural gas, but hydrogen does not have it and so far can't be added, that is why they have to mix it with natural gas and later separate it. Fixing the lines is doable, but will take time and, of course, natural gas (the only way to detect leaks)
Also the pressure for transporting hydrogen is higher than natural gas and they are not even sure if all components in the system can take it.
You might be able to get Hydrogen in 5 years along the west coast line, but I don't know how far north.
If direct extraction works the gulf would be the perfect place to produce it and have several distribution point along the extensive coast. East coast would be next, but currently there are no pipe lines running across like in California.
Getting hydrogen lines would be just the first step. After that we will need the stations. I would say to begin at least 500 stations in the south, just to get started.
The great lakes in the north could help in the production and distribution points. I would say around 700 stations to cover the north and center and 200 for more populated areas for overflow.
That will get you close to the supercharging stations that Tesla installed. Just keep in mind, having a network comparable with Tesla is not enough because Tesla had the advantage the everybody could charge their cars at home.
Now, we could develop a home hydrogen generator for home based on the same design that Honda did for the CNG vehicles, but the problem is that a home generator will consume a lot of power, hydrogen is far more dangerous than natural gas and the home station took 10 hours to provide enough fuel for 70 miles because it took a lot of time to get to such high pressure and hydrogen is even higher; so it might not even be possible.
Just the stations would be $4B, the production and distribution around $10B. Time 15 years if things go right and money is available.
It is doable and I hope it happens because I believe is a better alternative than going full electric, but it will take time.
It will also depend on politics. Hopefully Hydrogen does not get tagged as a political argument for one party because that will only make it worse.
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free radical
Canada
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Heres one for hydrogen fans
For some reason it never made onto any tv news
https://youtu.be/LH8GYsVl81Y
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Benny37
Buffalo
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Wowser LOL.
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map40
Florida
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Yeap, that is the biggest negative point Hydrogen has. There are several cases, you just need to Google hydrogen explosions...
That is also the number one problem for the NHTSA. How much hydrogen can the allow in a vehicle, how deep inside the body, what type of cage, all that good stuff they have to do to move a car from experimental to mass production
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map40
Florida
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JRscooby wrote:
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
Green hydrogen is defined by the type of energy used for it's production. Hydrogen casn be:
White: Naturally occuring (Not easy to find or use)
Black: Produce by Coal
Grey: Produced from Methane
Brown: Lignite
All of these are using FOSIL FUEL (and almost 95% of current hydrogen production)
Blue: Methane (Fosil Fuel) but the Carbon Monoxide is not released in the atmosphere (less than 1% of current use)
Green: produced with renewable energy. The most expensive production method and the most inconsistent as wind and solar are not constant. For this reason Green hydrogen production normally uses also fosil fuel when renewable energy is not available to keep the production equipment running otherwise the investment never pays off. This forces Green hydrogen to produce between 25 to 50% of Carbon emmisions than Fosil Fuel production because they run 25 to 50% of the time on fosil fuel.
So what is the solution? Direct sea water extraction with sea current power generation. Underwater power generation using sea water current never stops and it is quite reliable. The latest technology development allows for Hydrogen production directly from sea water without processing it. This will make the best source of hydrogen because it won't be Fosil Fuel dependant and it does not need water conditioning.
This is also the only possible way currently to produce hydrogen at pricess competitivelly to gasoline pricess. All other production methods produce hydrogen at a net cost higher than gasoline.
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propchef
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Here's one in the US that made the news.
https://www.wbtv.com/2020/04/07/homes-damaged-explosion-fuel-facility-catawba-county/
And here's a NG explosion near me. You may have heard about this one.
https://abc7news.com/san-bruno-fire-state-senate-explosion-pge/6994040/
Meanwhile, how many well or refinery accidents have there been that have killed people?
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RambleOnNW
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map40 wrote:
Green: produced with renewable energy. The most expensive production method and the most inconsistent as wind and solar are not constant. For this reason Green hydrogen production normally uses also fosil fuel when renewable energy is not available to keep the production equipment running otherwise the investment never pays off. This forces Green hydrogen to produce between 25 to 50% of Carbon emmisions than Fosil Fuel production because they run 25 to 50% of the time on fosil fuel.
Not sure where you got this definition but it is false. Green hydrogen is only green if it is made with renewable energy. If there is some fossil fuel involved then it is termed ‘low carbon’. And you forgot the renewables hydro and geothermal power, which of course have 100% availability. And hydro is inexpensive power.
There are multiple types of electrolyzers, PEM, alkaline, and solid oxide. Of the 3 only PEM can ramp its power input rapidly up and down to follow fluctuations in renewable power input.
There is also ‘pink’ hydrogen which is that produced using nuclear power.
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