propchef
NORCAL
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time2roll wrote:Huntindog wrote:A few days ago the Wall Street Journal had an article about what it presently takes for renewables to supply power 24/7.
Apparently it has been done on a small scale in several locations. The common theme was that it takes 3 times the capacity of a conventional power plant AND an incredible amount of batteries to achieve the level of reliability we are used to. They flat out concluded that it cannot be done with todays technology.. It would take too much real estate and cost way too much.
So we are going headlong down a road that presently has a bad ending.
Will a better way be developed?..... Maybe and maybe not. One thing is certain. Companies will only continue down this road if makes financial sense. Presently Governments are providing enough incentives to make it so. But even they cannot afford to do this at the level it will take to be green. One thing is certain. Buisinesses will not shoulder the cost alone, as long as they know it is not the ultimate solution. As they would be loath to pay for all the stranded costs of a failed experiment IF a better way forward is found. I assume there is an agenda or bias within the reporting.
Post the article at length so we can have real comments.
It wasn't a factual, in-depth article, it was on the "Opinions" page.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicle-ev-power-grid-electricity-shortage-11652302212
BYW, this article is subscription/password based, but it's someone's opinion, same as anyone posting here.
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JRscooby
Indepmo
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propchef wrote:time2roll wrote:Huntindog wrote:A few days ago the Wall Street Journal had an article about what it presently takes for renewables to supply power 24/7.
Apparently it has been done on a small scale in several locations. The common theme was that it takes 3 times the capacity of a conventional power plant AND an incredible amount of batteries to achieve the level of reliability we are used to. They flat out concluded that it cannot be done with todays technology.. It would take too much real estate and cost way too much.
So we are going headlong down a road that presently has a bad ending.
Will a better way be developed?..... Maybe and maybe not. One thing is certain. Companies will only continue down this road if makes financial sense. Presently Governments are providing enough incentives to make it so. But even they cannot afford to do this at the level it will take to be green. One thing is certain. Buisinesses will not shoulder the cost alone, as long as they know it is not the ultimate solution. As they would be loath to pay for all the stranded costs of a failed experiment IF a better way forward is found. I assume there is an agenda or bias within the reporting.
Post the article at length so we can have real comments.
It wasn't a factual, in-depth article, it was on the "Opinions" page.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicle-ev-power-grid-electricity-shortage-11652302212
BYW, this article is subscription/password based, but it's someone's opinion, same as anyone posting here.
And something to consider when judging how valid the opinion published in WSJ is that WSJ is owned by the same people that started a network with "News" in the name that according to the auto-biography of a co-founder. Profit is more important than truth, and Tell them something to make them mad, and who to be mad at, they will never change channels
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map40
Florida
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Lantley wrote:Articles and propaganda are created by both sides. As consumers it's hard to decipher the truth. At the end of the day it's not about technology but about who will control/maintain the profits of the energy industry.
Exactly. The only thing I normally try to do is to avoid the "sides". I don't care about the politics, I just care about my needs and my pocket. For me, 2 EVs work great, one for my son and one for me. My wife has a Cherokkee Trailhawk (that we toad) and my other son a Minivan that was a gift from when I left Chrysler (A 2008 with 145K miles with lifetime bumper to bumper warranty)
EVs are not for everybody, each person needs to check their own case. Generalizations live "They are all bad" or "They are going to take over the entire industry" are not possible. I know they won't be going away, but they will stop ghrowing at a certain point...
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Grit dog
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We really need a LIKE button for some of the recent level headedness. @map40 and others
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thomas201
Eastern Panhandle WV
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I address the design of a straight renewable system, because I was one of the engineers that studied it for my company, to support the pumping and lease custody systems on about 1,000 coalbed methane wells. The study was due to our local utility putting us at the bottom of the priority list when power was knocked out by a snowstorm for about a week. Despite the fact that we supplied the natural gas for their power plants.
First, you design for your peak load, plus about 25%, for planned and unplanned outages, along with either real hot or cold weather. The average load is meaningless. You need 99+% up time. Now if you do not want to always have a spinning fossil back up generation capacity (big money waster) you need storage. In the Mid Atlantic of the United States from research, modeling and monte carlo simulations, plus engineering judgement, then better figure about 3 days (peak usage not average). Three days is also good, because it takes about 3 days to bring a laid up, cold, utility sized steam boiler on line.
Now you see it. You will need at least three times your average usage in renewable generation capacity. Gotta plan for peaks, gotta plan for night (what is solar giving me on a 16 hour winter night), windless days and nights, something broken, a tree falls on the wrong power line and the big one, you gotta charge up your storage when you pull it down. Fossil plants were built with this stuff in mind, ditto a true renewable system. This design stuff fills books by the way. Most authors still say at the end you need a dispatchable back up, probably fossil. If it was easy, this is how we would do it.
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Huntindog
Phoenix AZ
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Joined: 04/08/2002
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propchef wrote:time2roll wrote:Huntindog wrote:A few days ago the Wall Street Journal had an article about what it presently takes for renewables to supply power 24/7.
Apparently it has been done on a small scale in several locations. The common theme was that it takes 3 times the capacity of a conventional power plant AND an incredible amount of batteries to achieve the level of reliability we are used to. They flat out concluded that it cannot be done with todays technology.. It would take too much real estate and cost way too much.
So we are going headlong down a road that presently has a bad ending.
Will a better way be developed?..... Maybe and maybe not. One thing is certain. Companies will only continue down this road if makes financial sense. Presently Governments are providing enough incentives to make it so. But even they cannot afford to do this at the level it will take to be green. One thing is certain. Buisinesses will not shoulder the cost alone, as long as they know it is not the ultimate solution. As they would be loath to pay for all the stranded costs of a failed experiment IF a better way forward is found. I assume there is an agenda or bias within the reporting.
Post the article at length so we can have real comments.
It wasn't a factual, in-depth article, it was on the "Opinions" page.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicle-ev-power-grid-electricity-shortage-11652302212
BYW, this article is subscription/password based, but it's someone's opinion, same as anyone posting here. That is not the right article.
The one I was talking about did not even mention EVs.
Nor did I in my post
Huntindog
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map40
Florida
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Grit dog wrote:We really need a LIKE button for some of the recent level headedness. @map40 and others
The comment is appreciated, and the fact that it is made is also recognition that we are not the only level heads, it takes one to see one...
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Reisender
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Grit dog wrote:We really need a LIKE button for some of the recent level headedness. @map40 and others
Yep. I suck at writing and explaining things. Glad there are those that can.
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Huntindog
Phoenix AZ
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Joined: 04/08/2002
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time2roll wrote:Huntindog wrote:A few days ago the Wall Street Journal had an article about what it presently takes for renewables to supply power 24/7.
Apparently it has been done on a small scale in several locations. The common theme was that it takes 3 times the capacity of a conventional power plant AND an incredible amount of batteries to achieve the level of reliability we are used to. They flat out concluded that it cannot be done with todays technology.. It would take too much real estate and cost way too much.
So we are going headlong down a road that presently has a bad ending.
Will a better way be developed?..... Maybe and maybe not. One thing is certain. Companies will only continue down this road if makes financial sense. Presently Governments are providing enough incentives to make it so. But even they cannot afford to do this at the level it will take to be green. One thing is certain. Buisinesses will not shoulder the cost alone, as long as they know it is not the ultimate solution. As they would be loath to pay for all the stranded costs of a failed experiment IF a better way forward is found. I assume there is an agenda or bias within the reporting.One should NEVER ASSume.
It shows a closed mind. Or someone who will not even consider any facts that do not support your viewpoint.
Post the article at length so we can have real comments.
* This post was
edited 01/11/23 04:12am by Huntindog *
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propchef
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Huntindog wrote:propchef wrote:time2roll wrote:Huntindog wrote:A few days ago the Wall Street Journal had an article about what it presently takes for renewables to supply power 24/7.
Apparently it has been done on a small scale in several locations. The common theme was that it takes 3 times the capacity of a conventional power plant AND an incredible amount of batteries to achieve the level of reliability we are used to. They flat out concluded that it cannot be done with todays technology.. It would take too much real estate and cost way too much.
So we are going headlong down a road that presently has a bad ending.
Will a better way be developed?..... Maybe and maybe not. One thing is certain. Companies will only continue down this road if makes financial sense. Presently Governments are providing enough incentives to make it so. But even they cannot afford to do this at the level it will take to be green. One thing is certain. Buisinesses will not shoulder the cost alone, as long as they know it is not the ultimate solution. As they would be loath to pay for all the stranded costs of a failed experiment IF a better way forward is found. I assume there is an agenda or bias within the reporting.
Post the article at length so we can have real comments.
It wasn't a factual, in-depth article, it was on the "Opinions" page.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicle-ev-power-grid-electricity-shortage-11652302212
BYW, this article is subscription/password based, but it's someone's opinion, same as anyone posting here. That is not the right article.
The one I was talking about did not even mention EVs.
Nor did I in my post
Fair enough, but to avoid this it helps to actually post or quote the article. We have to guess. I imagine the article you're referencing is also someone's opinion.
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