Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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My first blush is that you were tongue light when loaded and you confirmed it. And the pic sure looks like the axles could should move back a little. Especially when describing the payload.
Looks like they didn’t design the axle placement right if you gave them the right loading info.
Not sure the gn conversion will help if you don’t have enough tongue weight in the first place.
Upside is looks like moving axles would be real easy on that rig.
Just spitballing but you may be able to just weld new spring mounts on and extend the brake wires. Bing bang easy. Don’t even bother cutting the old ones off unless they interfere.
But if backing the rail in and pulling a little more weight up front works that seems even easier.
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dsrace
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Grit dog wrote:My first blush is that you were tongue light when loaded and you confirmed it. And the pic sure looks like the axles could should move back a little. Especially when describing the payload.
Looks like they didn’t design the axle placement right if you gave them the right loading info.
Not sure the gn conversion will help if you don’t have enough tongue weight in the first place.
Upside is looks like moving axles would be real easy on that rig.
Just spitballing but you may be able to just weld new spring mounts on and extend the brake wires. Bing bang easy. Don’t even bother cutting the old ones off unless they interfere.
But if backing the rail in and pulling a little more weight up front works that seems even easier.
They were informed of the length, width, height as well as the weight of the sand rail. also that 60% of that 2k lbs is on the back half. I specifically requested 20% tw. According to there #'s, I received 16% tw ...... 20% tw def would've been better, but it is what it is now. i know they cannot hit that target dead on and prob didn't try too hard, as they prob knew they couldn't. I really wonder if a 32' oal would've offered a little better balance.
I am not opposed to moving axles and its wide open underneath. I didn't want the skirting below the wall. I know it looks better but one blow out and it could be junk. I also plan on some small tool boxs mounted in those areas.....down the road.
I don't want to winch it in backwards if possible..... but I keep coming back to that fact. I guess I will have to try it and see but I will be weighing everything on the cat scale first. I will also have to figure out how to drop the rear fresh water tank to add 2 more tie downs. The current tie down configuration was layed out in the floor specifically for the rail being pulled In.
I was just curious if anyone had tried one and what changes it made. I know dead weight will add to but not as much as one would hope. Curious how much etc etc.
* This post was
edited 01/03/23 11:35am by dsrace *
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valhalla360
No paticular place.
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dsrace wrote:
I wouldn't trust the manufacturer numbers for a start. Go to the CAT scale fully loaded as if you are going on a trip.
2klb with a center of gravity 6-10ft behind the axles could easily remove 500-800lb off the hitch. If we assume the 1200lb is correct, that leaves the hitch weight at somewhere around 400-700lb on a trailer that is likely pushing 10k lb fully loaded. That would be 4-7% hitch weight...no wonder it gets squirly.
i agree and i do need to go weigh it once the weather gets better. we have more snow and ice forecasted for today. my guestimate was 10k to 10,500 lbs loaded.
i'm betting the tongue weight was closer to 600 lbs as that would explain why moving the two spare tires off the tail to the nose and adding apprx 100 lbs of tools made such a major difference. still wasn't enough but 85% better using my drw. i do not travel with any liquids in my tanks. considered adding 25 gals to the black tank as that is the farthest forward one.
.........
i believe that one can be tongue heavy on a bumper hitch and experience sway from that. i think the bpconversion would add leverage but really wondering if that 6' extension forward of the axles will add any tongue weight. i know it's not the same as moving the wheels back but i wonder if it amplifies tongue weight to some small extent?? if it did then permanently moving the spare tire carrier forward would be no issue.
So based on your description, you are grossly under weight on the hitch.
More weight on the hitch is almost always good so long as you don't overload the truck weight limits.
I'm not sure what this contraption will do. How much does it weigh and where is it's center of gravity? Moving the hitch further forward will reduce hitch weight but the weight of the contraption might counter that. You are still likely going to be light on the hitch.
Definitely get it weighed before putting a Band-Aid on that may or may not do anything.
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dsrace
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Quote:so based on your description, you are grossly under weight on the hitch.
More weight on the hitch is almost always good so long as you don't overload the truck weight limits.
I'm not sure what this contraption will do. How much does it weigh and where is it's center of gravity? Moving the hitch further forward will reduce hitch weight but the weight of the contraption might counter that. You are still likely going to be light on the hitch.
Definitely get it weighed before putting a Band-Aid on that may or may not do anything.
According to their site it weighs 350 lbs. Just Looking at it, i would say most of that will be over tongue or atleast behind the tailgate.
The hitch on my truck is rated for 2200 lbs of tongue weight. Its an aftermarket hitch because fords was only rated for 1000 lbs tw.
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edited 01/04/23 01:48pm by dsrace *
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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The lack of quotes is confusing, but anyway….
You’ll gain most of the contraption weight on the pin weight and a bit less of the actual trailer weight, so won’t gain a whole lot of pin weight.
Whoever said too much tongue weight can cause sway as well is partially kinda right. But generally it’s only when the tow vehicle is quite under sized and under sprung.
Sure would be nice to be able to demo one. That’s a lot of coin for something that may help you.
I’d move the axles back for way less money ifn I “had” to correct the problem and could t do it by shuffling gear around.
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Mmaxed
Montana
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It sure sounds like you are light on tongue weight now. As you said a fifth wheel/goose neck should have 25% of the weight on the pin. If you are light now, how will you ever have the weight you need with the conversion? A fiver with too light pin weight is just as bad as a bumper pull.
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dsrace
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Grit dog wrote:The lack of quotes is confusing, but anyway….
You’ll gain most of the contraption weight on the pin weight and a bit less of the actual trailer weight, so won’t gain a whole lot of pin weight.
Whoever said too much tongue weight can cause sway as well is partially kinda right. But generally it’s only when the tow vehicle is quite under sized and under sprung.
Sure would be nice to be able to demo one. That’s a lot of coin for something that may help you.
I’d move the axles back for way less money ifn I “had” to correct the problem and could t do it by shuffling gear around.
the lack of quotations was my fault. i cut it down so it wasn't as large of a response and that isn't easy to do on a cell phone or at least for myself it isn't.
that is exactly what i have been wondering........where will the weight of the gn be or will it even add weight to the tongue. it has to add some and it would appear that the majority of the weight would be behind the tail gate, so i would assume it would be on the tongue. no matter what, if the trailer is detached from the truck, that 350 lbs will show up on a scale as tongue weight. so is it a true addition to tongue weight when considering a load behind the axles acting against it? i truly have no idea.
i agree, i wish i could demo it but thats not an around the block demo, i would need a couple hundred miles , loaded with my sand rail to know for sure.
read about tongue heavy and had a friend warn me about it years ago.
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dsrace
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Mmaxed wrote:It sure sounds like you are light on tongue weight now. As you said a fifth wheel/goose neck should have 25% of the weight on the pin. If you are light now, how will you ever have the weight you need with the conversion? A fiver with too light pin weight is just as bad as a bumper pull.
correct
all that is based on not having weighed it personally and simply going off the manufacturer's word. currently at 16%..... supposedly.
if i move the spares to the nose along with the tool box i just added to the nose, that will possible add 300 lbs to the tongue. which would set me at 21% ( empty, rather then 16% current) but at what point is a bumper hitch tongue heavy w/o a load. my hitch will handle it but will others? i wont keep it forever so i have to be mindful about mods. the issue is when loaded, specifically loaded with my sand rail pulled in rather then backed in. that is when it comes up tongue light and its not fun. i have not tried with it backed in. that is more difficult to do then one would think. my rear track width is 10" wider then the front and would require scab wheels to get it narrower. it would also need to be winched in as it would be a tight fit side to side! ![[emoticon]](https://forums.motorhome.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile") definatley doable but i would pre fer to avoid it if possible. it would appear that will be what i need to try next though as it might be the simpler rt.
so the GN conversion would all but remove sway, a definate positive there, but i also wonder if it's 350lb dead weight adds to tongue weight? i would think so because if it was bolted to it , detached from the truck, it should still register as tongue weight? i have never used one so i asked. they are bolt on and can be trasferred so thats a plus . moving axles would be an option but if i ever move on to another toyhauler then moving the axles would difficult to undo where the GN would not.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Well, if the towing situation goes from whatever you said, just fine, to horrible with the buggy loaded in forwards, the only way to even guesstimate what the next move is, is to know the weights.
That's alot coming from me, never weighed a trailer or trailer tongue in my life and towed hundreds of different trailers, maybe 1000.
You need to experiment a bit as well before jumping into a potential solution, IMO.
But if the tongue is so light that it won't pull straight with the buggy in forwards, then I doubt the GN convo will be the answer. It will add some weight, but by stretching the tongue out, you'll lose a smidge of the original weight and won't see all of the 350lb device weight, so mathematically, I'd say maybe it will add 250-300lbs max to the pin.
With your axle placement and heavy tail wagging the dog, you may need to ballast the front or move the axles.
Curiously, the pic like I said looks like the axles are a bit fwd of a typical bp hauler, but I did a quick scale comparison of your pic and my old trailer on blubeam and your axles are about the same spot from Tounge to tail.
However that really doesn't matter. You've already talked about heavy stuff aft of the axles. I really think it's going to take some trailer mods or significant ballast up front.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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dsrace wrote:anyone have any experience with https://www.bpconversions.com/
they are the same price as a hensly or pro pride and i already have a gooseneck ball in the bed. this dune sport is 12'6" tall so it catch's a fair amount of wind and can still move my drw side to side. it's not horrible but enough that my wife doesn't want to take over for a bit as she would with the wolf pack 295 fiver.
The add on GN hitch like the pic were popular back in '60s and '70s until 5th wheel rv trailers became the norm.
We had one on a special rigged with bunkers on a 28' flatbed bumper pull trailer. Much better handling and could be pulled with any 3/4 ton truck in that era.
My brother had one like it (made in Kansas) on his '70s 24' Layton tandem axle TT. Made a world of difference with his 1/2 ton Ford especially when double towing with his fishin' boat.
He still has it on the farm used as a tool shed and storing saddle/gear.
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers
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