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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 10/07/22 11:02am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RCMAN46 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

How many of you are going to be willing to pay an extra $1500 (just a guess) for a high output Powerstroke?


Did Ford up and hire a bucnh of ex Ram guys and now all cornfused or what the hay is going on?

NVM the absolute mystery of the new 6.8 gasser, to either fit in between where the 6.2 left off and the 7.3 takes over? Or is it too going to be a HOE and smaller displacement but more snort than Godzilla? (kinda like the Hellcat is smaller than the base sRT)

Now this whole deezul thing... Are you guys implying that Frod is going to downgrade the "standard" Flowerjoke to a milquetoast 370/850 and offer that in light duty models with a HOE upgrade?
Or are y'all completely confused and the HOE will be the standard in all the light duties with the detuned version for Med Duty use, as it is currently (the transgender F450 pickup that is rated like a 350 but bigger but not as big as a real F450, not withstanding)?



The 6.8 gasser replaces the 6.2 and will be mated to the ten speed transmission. It will be significantly more powerful than the outgoing 6.2. Both the regular and high output Powerstrokes will be available in all trims levels on F250s through F450 pick ups. The HOE will have a water cooled turbo housing, stainless exhaust manifold and significant increase in power.


Yet the "regular" one is going to be 370/850 if I read right, which is about what the detuned med duty Scorpion motors are, correct?
So you're saying there's going to be new light duty Flowerjokes running around with less lead in their pencils than previous model years?
This makes about as much sense as having 2 gassers that are literally about 2deg of timing advance from each other in the HP department.

Weird stuff going on at Frod....


I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the new 6.8 litre gas is going to be significantly more powerful than the 6.2 and the 7.3 gets a big bump in power. The regular 6.7 Powerstroke will have 475 HP and the high output gets a significant bump. Ford is not releasing numbers... the comment I heard from a Ford engineer was something like "we are not releasing the numbers but when we do our customers are going to be happy". I'd like see a bigger boost in torque vs HP. 1200 lbft at 1600 rpm with 540 HP at 2600 rpm would be wonderful and 1250 lbft @ 1600 and 525 hp at 2600 rpm would be even better.


ya you cant boost torque with out increasing HP though.. one of the side effects that I love about diesel is the more power they squeeze out of it generaly the better the milage if you can keep your foot out of it. going to be interesting to see what it is.

Steve



The Cummins only makes 420 HP but has a 36% torque rise.... As the engine pulls down on a hill the torque at the rear wheels increases to meet the hill's demand. The Powerstroke only has about a 9% torque rise.... If you are pulling a heavy load up a steep hill with your foot to the floor with a Powerstroke the engine does not build nearly as much torque as it slows. The rpm will drop quicker until the next gear can be selected ... the increase in rear wheel torque comes largely from gearing... hence the 10 speed transmission behind the Powerstroke. You can boost torque without increasing peak HP. If the Powerstroke were capable of making 1500 lb ft of torque at 1600 rpm the engineers could fuel it to make that 1500 lb ft of peak torque and still only make 475 peak HP at 2600 rpm. That engine would have a 56% torque rise. The larger diesel engines often have different power curves offered depending on the type of work they are designed to do. A 500 HP Cat C15 can produce 1850 lb ft of torque and has a 48% torque rise.


Can you provide a link that shows the torque/hp curves for the 2022 or 2023 Cummins both standard output and High output. I have searched the internet and have not been able to find any torque/hp curves for the Cummins for the last 5 years.


I haven't seen the torque curves for the new engines but I can generate torque and power curves from the specs that we have available.

Here is a torque curve and power curve for the 2021 HO Cummins I've generated:
[image]
[image]

Or this graph is a little different scale that shows both plotted on the same graph:

[image]


2022 F350 SRW Platinum short box 4x4.
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blt2ski

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Posted: 10/07/22 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fish

It's been known for years, assuming using the same axle, that taller gears due to bigger teeth are stronger than lower ones. Then putting in a say 12.5" diff vs an 11.5" did gears, those gears generally speaking weigh more, more drive train loss, fuel used etc.
With that, a 4.10 12.5 will be stronger than an 11.5" rp. I'm sure their are other positives to the larger gears....
At the same time, are the front diffs getting larger to meet power going to them in 4wd?
Yeah I'm asking questions along with some facts that I know. I also know there is no real right or wrong regarding this issue.
I'll leave it at that.

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
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Huntindog

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Posted: 10/07/22 02:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


Probably because GM didn't want to design a larger rear end assembly and do it right to support a larger gear.

I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow and probably the same could be said with the 10 speeds.
The ring and pinion surface contact shrinking with lower gears is a well known fact among gearheads.
And my Silverado's 10 speed skips 1st gear when not towing. Do the Fords not have this feature?



Huntindog
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FishOnOne

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Posted: 10/07/22 03:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


Probably because GM didn't want to design a larger rear end assembly and do it right to support a larger gear.

I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow and probably the same could be said with the 10 speeds.
The ring and pinion surface contact shrinking with lower gears is a well known fact among gearheads.
And my Silverado's 10 speed skips 1st gear when not towing. Do the Fords not have this feature?


That's good... As for the 10 speed Ford transmissions I don't know. I do know it skips gears but I always thought they always start in first gear.


'12 Ford Super Duty FX4 ELD CC 6.7 PSD 400HP 800ft/lbs
"250k Miles"
'16 Sprinter 319MKS "Wide Body"


FishOnOne

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Posted: 10/07/22 03:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

Fish

It's been known for years, assuming using the same axle, that taller gears due to bigger teeth are stronger than lower ones. Then putting in a say 12.5" diff vs an 11.5" did gears, those gears generally speaking weigh more, more drive train loss, fuel used etc.
With that, a 4.10 12.5 will be stronger than an 11.5" rp. I'm sure their are other positives to the larger gears....
At the same time, are the front diffs getting larger to meet power going to them in 4wd?
Yeah I'm asking questions along with some facts that I know. I also know there is no real right or wrong regarding this issue.
I'll leave it at that.

Marty


I know the front diffs got larger at some point to handle more load capacity, but not sure about to handle more torque. Having said that the Super Duty's got a larger front diff (Dana super 60) in 05 and Ram got a larger diff in '13 and believe they haven't changed since.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 10/07/22 06:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty


Marty all the numbers mean nothing to me, all I know is I have had my 35k+ combined weight on some steep grades and it never shuddered coughed or spit it simply takes off with ease.


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 10/07/22 06:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow"

Same here.

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 10/08/22 11:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


Probably because GM didn't want to design a larger rear end assembly and do it right to support a larger gear.

I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow and probably the same could be said with the 10 speeds.


Nope, not it. You know this. GM doesn’t design their own solid axles. They come off the same shelf at AAM that other truck brands do. And there is a larger axle sitting on the next shelf over and it’s in use already. Has been for a while just not in GMs.


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 10/08/22 02:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Here's a couple more torque/power curves:

[image][image][image]

* This post was edited 10/08/22 02:48pm by 4x4ord *

FishOnOne

The Great State of Texas

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Posted: 10/08/22 04:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


Probably because GM didn't want to design a larger rear end assembly and do it right to support a larger gear.

I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow and probably the same could be said with the 10 speeds.


Nope, not it. You know this. GM doesn’t design their own solid axles. They come off the same shelf at AAM that other truck brands do. And there is a larger axle sitting on the next shelf over and it’s in use already. Has been for a while just not in GMs.


The axle that's used on the gas powered HD's is a GM designed axle that's been in use since the 70's and used on C/K30 series trucks. But on the diesel trucks your correct. I was trying the keep the discussion simple and to the point.

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