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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 10/06/22 09:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

StirCrazy wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

How many of you are going to be willing to pay an extra $1500 (just a guess) for a high output Powerstroke?


Did Ford up and hire a bucnh of ex Ram guys and now all cornfused or what the hay is going on?

NVM the absolute mystery of the new 6.8 gasser, to either fit in between where the 6.2 left off and the 7.3 takes over? Or is it too going to be a HOE and smaller displacement but more snort than Godzilla? (kinda like the Hellcat is smaller than the base sRT)

Now this whole deezul thing... Are you guys implying that Frod is going to downgrade the "standard" Flowerjoke to a milquetoast 370/850 and offer that in light duty models with a HOE upgrade?
Or are y'all completely confused and the HOE will be the standard in all the light duties with the detuned version for Med Duty use, as it is currently (the transgender F450 pickup that is rated like a 350 but bigger but not as big as a real F450, not withstanding)?



The 6.8 gasser replaces the 6.2 and will be mated to the ten speed transmission. It will be significantly more powerful than the outgoing 6.2. Both the regular and high output Powerstrokes will be available in all trims levels on F250s through F450 pick ups. The HOE will have a water cooled turbo housing, stainless exhaust manifold and significant increase in power.


Yet the "regular" one is going to be 370/850 if I read right, which is about what the detuned med duty Scorpion motors are, correct?
So you're saying there's going to be new light duty Flowerjokes running around with less lead in their pencils than previous model years?
This makes about as much sense as having 2 gassers that are literally about 2deg of timing advance from each other in the HP department.

Weird stuff going on at Frod....


I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the new 6.8 litre gas is going to be significantly more powerful than the 6.2 and the 7.3 gets a big bump in power. The regular 6.7 Powerstroke will have 475 HP and the high output gets a significant bump. Ford is not releasing numbers... the comment I heard from a Ford engineer was something like "we are not releasing the numbers but when we do our customers are going to be happy". I'd like see a bigger boost in torque vs HP. 1200 lbft at 1600 rpm with 540 HP at 2600 rpm would be wonderful and 1250 lbft @ 1600 and 525 hp at 2600 rpm would be even better.


ya you cant boost torque with out increasing HP though.. one of the side effects that I love about diesel is the more power they squeeze out of it generaly the better the milage if you can keep your foot out of it. going to be interesting to see what it is.

Steve



The Cummins only makes 420 HP but has a 36% torque rise.... As the engine pulls down on a hill the torque at the rear wheels increases to meet the hill's demand. The Powerstroke only has about a 9% torque rise.... If you are pulling a heavy load up a steep hill with your foot to the floor with a Powerstroke the engine does not build nearly as much torque as it slows. The rpm will drop quicker until the next gear can be selected ... the increase in rear wheel torque comes largely from gearing... hence the 10 speed transmission behind the Powerstroke. You can boost torque without increasing peak HP. If the Powerstroke were capable of making 1500 lb ft of torque at 1600 rpm the engineers could fuel it to make that 1500 lb ft of peak torque and still only make 475 peak HP at 2600 rpm. That engine would have a 56% torque rise. The larger diesel engines often have different power curves offered depending on the type of work they are designed to do. A 500 HP Cat C15 can produce 1850 lb ft of torque and has a 48% torque rise.


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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 10/06/22 09:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.


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RCMAN46

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Posted: 10/06/22 11:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

How many of you are going to be willing to pay an extra $1500 (just a guess) for a high output Powerstroke?


Did Ford up and hire a bucnh of ex Ram guys and now all cornfused or what the hay is going on?

NVM the absolute mystery of the new 6.8 gasser, to either fit in between where the 6.2 left off and the 7.3 takes over? Or is it too going to be a HOE and smaller displacement but more snort than Godzilla? (kinda like the Hellcat is smaller than the base sRT)

Now this whole deezul thing... Are you guys implying that Frod is going to downgrade the "standard" Flowerjoke to a milquetoast 370/850 and offer that in light duty models with a HOE upgrade?
Or are y'all completely confused and the HOE will be the standard in all the light duties with the detuned version for Med Duty use, as it is currently (the transgender F450 pickup that is rated like a 350 but bigger but not as big as a real F450, not withstanding)?



The 6.8 gasser replaces the 6.2 and will be mated to the ten speed transmission. It will be significantly more powerful than the outgoing 6.2. Both the regular and high output Powerstrokes will be available in all trims levels on F250s through F450 pick ups. The HOE will have a water cooled turbo housing, stainless exhaust manifold and significant increase in power.


Yet the "regular" one is going to be 370/850 if I read right, which is about what the detuned med duty Scorpion motors are, correct?
So you're saying there's going to be new light duty Flowerjokes running around with less lead in their pencils than previous model years?
This makes about as much sense as having 2 gassers that are literally about 2deg of timing advance from each other in the HP department.

Weird stuff going on at Frod....


I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the new 6.8 litre gas is going to be significantly more powerful than the 6.2 and the 7.3 gets a big bump in power. The regular 6.7 Powerstroke will have 475 HP and the high output gets a significant bump. Ford is not releasing numbers... the comment I heard from a Ford engineer was something like "we are not releasing the numbers but when we do our customers are going to be happy". I'd like see a bigger boost in torque vs HP. 1200 lbft at 1600 rpm with 540 HP at 2600 rpm would be wonderful and 1250 lbft @ 1600 and 525 hp at 2600 rpm would be even better.


ya you cant boost torque with out increasing HP though.. one of the side effects that I love about diesel is the more power they squeeze out of it generaly the better the milage if you can keep your foot out of it. going to be interesting to see what it is.

Steve



The Cummins only makes 420 HP but has a 36% torque rise.... As the engine pulls down on a hill the torque at the rear wheels increases to meet the hill's demand. The Powerstroke only has about a 9% torque rise.... If you are pulling a heavy load up a steep hill with your foot to the floor with a Powerstroke the engine does not build nearly as much torque as it slows. The rpm will drop quicker until the next gear can be selected ... the increase in rear wheel torque comes largely from gearing... hence the 10 speed transmission behind the Powerstroke. You can boost torque without increasing peak HP. If the Powerstroke were capable of making 1500 lb ft of torque at 1600 rpm the engineers could fuel it to make that 1500 lb ft of peak torque and still only make 475 peak HP at 2600 rpm. That engine would have a 56% torque rise. The larger diesel engines often have different power curves offered depending on the type of work they are designed to do. A 500 HP Cat C15 can produce 1850 lb ft of torque and has a 48% torque rise.


Can you provide a link that shows the torque/hp curves for the 2022 or 2023 Cummins both standard output and High output. I have searched the internet and have not been able to find any torque/hp curves for the Cummins for the last 5 years.

Grit dog

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Posted: 10/06/22 11:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 10/06/22 11:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.


You're happy with how your Cummins pulls with a 20% torque rise. The HO 2021s with a 36% torque rise have much less need of more gears.

Looking at it from a little different perspective a person could argue and say "With enough horsepower torque rise is a non issue". And that statement is true also. If I'm pulling a 17k RV up a 6% grade with my Powerstroke at 60 mph, the transmission will drop into 6th gear. In 6th gear my engine will be running 2500 rpm where it is capable of making 460 horsepower. 460 horsepower is enough power to pull my trailer up the 6% grade at 60 mph. So, in this scenario as my truck starts to climb and more torque is needed the engine doesn't slow down ... it holds 2500 rpm as I continue to feed it more coal.

blt2ski

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Posted: 10/06/22 04:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
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Huntindog

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Posted: 10/06/22 07:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


* This post was edited 10/07/22 03:39am by Huntindog *


Huntindog
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FishOnOne

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Posted: 10/07/22 07:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think you just explained why the CUMMINS does NOT need more than a 6 speed.

Agreed. But could sure make great use of the extra gears…


Personally, comparing the 6 he has vs the 10 sp. He should appreciate the 4.5 1st gear vs the 3.5 he has from an easier starting standpoint. Then being as lower gears are spaced closer together, rpm range used should be less.
This should also allow a higher RA so lower RPM at 60-70 like he drives, still a lower overall low gear to start with.
Possibly even able to computer program to not use first unless really loaded, or on a grade say steeper than 10%.
I'd like these option with 1500 4.3 V6! I'm only a 300/300 gaz motor with 3.42 gears! This this pulls better in first than the BB 3sp pos TH400/4l80e transmission with 4.10's!

Marty
Another benefit to a taller geared rearend is that it is stronger. Having a tranny with more gears makes it possible for the rearend to be stronger.
I was actually told by a longtime GM employee, that the reason the Dmax was not available with 4.10s was that it destroyed the pinion gear everytime they tried it.
An astute observer will note that GM went to a taller 3.42 in place of the 3.73 AND increased the size of the R&P when the 10 speed became available. These changes allowed them to do away with limiting power in lower gears.


Probably because GM didn't want to design a larger rear end assembly and do it right to support a larger gear.

I do wish I could lock out first gear on my truck when I don't tow and probably the same could be said with the 10 speeds.


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FishOnOne

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Posted: 10/07/22 08:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If I was ordering a new Super Duty today it would be with the King Ranch package (Only if it's still available with chrome bumpers) and the 6.7 HO.

ppine

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Posted: 10/07/22 08:49am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If you don't need more power, why are you looking at the most powerful diesel made and the HO model?

Why buy new if you want to keep it for a year?

Buy a used truck and make it easy on yourself.

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