Westinghouse i4500 Generator

[MNRon]

I posted a few weeks ago about trying to run my AC with a Yamaha 2k genny and Magnum 3000W boost inverter. Sort summary - the Yamaha just wasn’t strong enough with surges to work.

So now I’ve purchased a Westinghouse i4500 which we just picked up today in Salt Lake. It’s 100deg out so I expected I could run my AC, maybe both ACs with the boost inverter…no joy 😞

Altitude here is 4200ft so I don’t expect the full 3.7kW static performance but still it should start and run an AC!??!!

By playing around with Magnum control settings I can nurse the genny (with Magnum boost support) to start one AC once in a while (Magnum VAC dropout=60v, AC input limit=20A; manually start AC fan on low early; etc). Still have to futz with it a dozen times or so to get success. When running the Westinghouse shows it’s providing 2.3k power (AC, fan, converter).

But even when I nurse it up on one AC it only ran an hour then kicked out, a half hour the second time. Just spent 10min getting things going again, hopefully longer this time but we’ll see. When it kicks out the boost inverter takes over and keeps the AC and fan running by drawing about 170A from my batteries. Not sure why genny kicks out as it doesn’t show overload, just reduces to 0power and the Magnum timer to kick it in starts dancing with the genny but it doesn’t ever come back in.

As I’m typing, the genny just kicked down to 1.3k power and my Magnum is supplying load support of 50A from batteries for a couple minutes; then genny went back up to 1.7k and is running the AC on it’s own again.

Anyone have a clue what’s going on, and why the Westinghouse can’t start and run an AC on it’s own?

[pianotuna]

MNRon wrote:

By playing around with Magnum control settings I can nurse the genny (with Magnum boost support) to start one AC once in a while (Magnum VAC dropout=60v, AC input limit=20A; manually start AC fan on low early; etc). Still have to futz with it a dozen times or so to get success. When running the Westinghouse shows it’s providing 2.3k power (AC, fan, converter).

Set the Magnum up to 37 amps input.

My Yamaha Iseb starts my single air conditioner reliably after it has warmed up and will do so in eco mode. The range of wattage starts at 1200 watts and goes up to 1900 watts. I have the Magnum set at 27 amps to allow the boost from the generator to work.

MNron I always see the red over load light on the Magnum remote--and that happened both before and after the microaire was added. In hind sight I would not buy the microaire.

I found out well after I purchased the Magnum that they don't recommend running an air conditioner from it. If my inverter/charger fails again (it caught on fire), I will move to Victron or Outback.

[3_tons]

With advice like “two times yada, yada” Sounds to me like the phone answering guy at the Maagnum is passing the buck…

My ProSine inverter is 2000w (4500 surge for 5 sec), and my genny is 2200w, but either on their own (including genny in Eco mode) will start and run an 11kbtu Coleman Mach1 p.s.without a hitch…

Note, the problem I WAS having only occurred when genny was in Eco mode while passing thru the smart inverter (whether inverter was in standby mode or off)…Regardless of programming the inverter was not happy…Thus the added ATS solution that ends all nuances and provides even greater operating latitude - the simultaneous use of air conditioner, microwave, etc…..

Either way (regardless how one might look at it…), the generator is on-line and assigned the same tasking (or LESS if operable in Eco), but with the added ATS, neutered of unnecessary proprietary software glitches…

At least from an experienced process point of view, that’s how I see it…

3 tons

[MNRon]

Itinerant1- thanks again for all of your help in understanding this (and 3 tons too). I spent more time on the phone again yesterday with another Magnum tech. He didn’t seem surprised, and pushed that the problem is I’m not using a generator that’s 2x the kW of the inverter!?!

It’s clear to me that the Magnum algorithm to accept incoming power integrity is not tolerant of the momentary slump that generators have under high current impulses. It also sounds like this design flaw is not limited to just Magnum. I’m a little surprised that they don’t seem to care, and don’t expect that people buy generators snd hybrid inverters assuming they play together better and load support is as simple as addition.

With your help I’ve purchased a larger genny, and turned my Magnum to optimize it’s performance in this respect. I’ll be adding soft starts and then expect I can improve the odds of running AC on the genny (through the Magnum; pass thru, or load support) to where it’s no longer an issue.

This forum is great, thanks again.

[Itinerant1]

MNRon, I looked at the fault history and to be honest nothing looks out of the ordinary.  Just the point when it switches from inverting to pass through from the generator that it just doesn't play well with eack other at times.

Here is how mine looked
H1 D 6 11:18
Inverting 12.8 -336a (this amp # is the locked rotor peaking from the A/C unit, I know the inverting at time of this happening would be around 10-15a normal minimum daily draw.)
BTS:77F
TFMER:122F
FETS:104F

There was a couple of older faults with amp being 110 upto 200a but from the same issue of inverting to generator pass through not playing well with each other. Since raising the load share incoming AC to 16a instead of 15a no more faults.

[3_tons]

“ I don't even try eco mode not worth the hassle. Full fuel tank on the eu2200i lasts exactly 4 hours running the A/C, can put a stop watch to it.”

Eco-mode option is available only on ‘inverter type generators’ (meaning flywheel-alternator based…), otherwise, a conventional low-tech generator (i.e. alternator separate from motor) will suffice but at W.O.T. (wide open throttle).

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

3 tons wrote:
I’d tried a ton of steps too, starting with adding a soft-start, then switching out my Honda 2000 for a 2200, then had some limited success by adding a Hughs autoformer (though not it’s intended purpose…), but uber hot weather was the variable that seemed to always kill the Eco-mode deal…But as I recalled long ago with our previous camper using the same air conditioner (no soft-start), the Honda 2000 would run it while in Eco-mode, so the more and more I thought about it, what came into my field of view was the fussy pass-thru inverter…Sure enough, it turned out that was the problem all along…Either way, I prefer the slightly larger genny for the additional head room, and with the new strategy we can run the microwave or coffee pot (via inverter) and air conditioner at the same time, so in the end I’m truly more than pleased 🙂

3 tons

I don't even try eco mode not worth the hassle. Full fuel tank on the eu2200i lasts exactly 4 hours running the A/C, can put a stop watch to it. 😉

[3_tons]

From some ‘dogged experience’ ($$), I can now surmise little practical justification in attempting to run an air conditioner-generator combination through a fussy ‘pass-thru’ type inverter - Though I can well appreciate the Holy Grail of load sharing (e.g. more fuel efficient generator), this supposed benefit can become somewhat theoretical when it comes to managing (or transitioning to and from) a highly inductive-reactive compressor type load (a virtual ‘push-back’ on the power source), most likely an iffy ‘not one size fits all’ software situational issue that might vary per scenario (considering a variety of variables) ….Short of some on-site, dicey over-writing of the inverter’s fussy programming sensitivities, adding a stand alone ATS Switch (a bypass affair) begins to make sense, and can readily overcome this malady while providing some additional benefits (aforementioned) as well…JMHO,

3 tons, at 4800’ elv…

[3_tons]

I’d tried a ton of steps too, starting with adding a soft-start, then switching out my Honda 2000 for a 2200, then had some limited success by adding a Hughs autoformer (though not it’s intended purpose…), but uber hot weather was the variable that seemed to always kill the Eco-mode deal…But as I recalled long ago with our previous camper using the same air conditioner (no soft-start), the Honda 2000 would run it while in Eco-mode, so the more and more I thought about it, what came into my field of view was the fussy pass-thru inverter…Sure enough, it turned out that was the problem all along…Either way, I prefer the slightly larger genny for the additional head room, and with the new strategy we can run the microwave or coffee pot (via inverter) and air conditioner at the same time, so in the end I’m truly more than pleased 🙂

3 tons

[MNRon]

Interesting work around 3 tons.

I wish inverter companies were more forthcoming about boost capabilities and generator interactions (actually I wish they would have just solved this problem 🙂 ) that way I’d have known going in instead of having false expectations and dealing with it real time in >100deg weather. Frankly I’m not sure how aware of this they are after a couple hours with Magnum techs.

Surprisingly the Magnum tech asked me “have you heard about the rule of sizing a generator 2x the inverter size?” He was suggesting that I should have a 6kW genny since I have a 3kW inverter! When I balked he quickly backed down and said “while we recommend…”. With that kind of margin I would expect you’d never hear of this issue, but it kind of defeats why I replaced my perfectly good Magnum2800 with the 3012 load support unit.

[3_tons]

FWIW, I’ve been struggling along for several years with a closely similar problem but with different branded components but getting about the exact same results…My frustrations finally hit critical mass this summer due to the unusually hot weather…Scenario:

Honda 2200i Generator and Xantrax ProSine 2.0 pass-thru inverter, 11k btu Coleman Mach 1 PS with soft-start…My goal all along was to be able to run the air conditioner (low fan) while the genny is in the ‘Eco’ mode, and the inverter in the standby mode, but a dreaded oscillation between standby and invert would shortly after develop, and ultimately the inverter would not successfully pass the load back to the generator…I’d already tried monkeying extensively with the inverter programming, but to no avail…

Finally, using an extension cord I decided to bypass the inverter completely and try again with the Honda set to Eco mode connected directly to the Coleman and it worked flawlessly every time the compressor kicked on…Though as to be expected it rose a bit above idle speed, the little Honda purred like a kitten never once failing to pick up the heavy compressor start load…

So my ultimate solution was then to install a new dedicated ATS Switch between the inverter and the air conditioner, with it’s own genny power cord…This has proven to work perfectly and when generator power is not present, the inverter (via ATS) will power up the air conditioner as per past practice…In this way the air cond and inverter can be run simultaneously because the new ATS’s dominate position defaults to the generator…

I used a Go Power 30a ATS (a rebranded Progressive Dynamics unit), and to make things work, connected the inverter output to the normally shore power input terminals, and the new genny cord to the generator input terminals….This arraignment may seem odd, but after much trial and error, I then acted upon a tip from a knowledgeable EE whereby the ATS sees the generator terminals as the dominate power source (e.g. perhaps their diagram is printed in error??)….

Problem SOLVED !!

3 tons

Upon edit, I should add that this problem persisted whether the inverter was in standby mode OR set to OFF…

[MNRon]

Thanks again Itinerant1!

I think I know my answer. I’ll pass along the recommendation to Magnum that they should look at how the inverter in load support (or even pass thru) interacts with generators under heavy surge conditions; if they can make it more tolerant I believe the issues I’ve experienced would go away. Regardless, no need to swap out my 3012 as the next one would behave the same. When we get home I’ll put soft starts on before the next summer trip. Certainly don’t expect to deal with the heat we have had this summer again though (a couple weeks above 100deg traveling ~PNW, including a few days >110!).

Glad to know you’re happy with your system. Other than finding this issue when coach was 100deg inside I am as well, and plan to bring the Magnum charge controller into my system next year along with some solar.

Safe travels

[Itinerant1]

Yes the red light would come on while the A/C attempted to start. I looked at the fault in the me-arc along time ago but not the recent one, which should be still there. I wont be back to till Friday to look at it.

Other than that glitch which I believe I figured the "work around" by just increasing 1a. The Magnum equipment is pretty robust, that inverter has been on in use everyday since April 2016, inverting loads of 150a a couple times a day up to near 200a+ on occasion, the Magnum PT100 scc has not given one issue at all. The system as awhole with lfp batteries truely has been a set it and forget system in everyday use, it just works quietly in the background while we boondock.

[MNRon]

Itinerant1- when you say “fault” with 15A limit, do you mean the red light comes on on the arc50 indicating a Magnum fault? If so, have you ever looked at the fault info using the ‘tech’ button? That’s what mine is doing, and fault info shows AC Overload with Vdc anywhere from 10.0v to 11.0v and a current draw around 400A.

I don’t understand why the Magnum can’t simply add to the genny supplied power in load support like it does when attached to shore. But am leaning more and more towards a design issue on how the Magnum handles surge response from a generator (behaves proper when plugged into even a 20A outlet, just not with genny).

Good news is that today it was only low 90s outside and I was two for two in starting one AC by: input amps at 27A, LBCO at 10.0v, VAC cutoff at 60v, generator running supporting charging, Magnum in load support, switch AC fan on ~1min before compressor. Turned off load support after AC running. Both times when it started I didn’t have the guts to stop it to experiment further 🙂

Greatly appreciate the help you’ve been giving me. If when yours faults it flips on the Arc50 red light I’m pretty sure that I just need to add soft starts 😞

[Itinerant1]

MNRon, Before installing the Micro-Air on the unit if I was in AZ (low elevation) during Dec-Apr there wasn't an issue at 15a load share. As I moved north during the summer and climbed in elevation 4,000' or so and ambient temps of 90f was the range that it would be hit and miss with 1 generator set at 15a load share. If I put my eu2000i and the companion eu2000i together and set load share to 30a there never was a problem even at elevations of 6,000' or so. I never ran the A/C unit off of batteries before adding the micro-air.

Since adding the Micro-air last year I can use either 1 eu2000i or 1 eu2200i generator with eco off and it will start the A/C unit up to 6,000' or so without issue as long as I have 16a as the load share, 15a is a fault every once in awhile especially if the temps are in the mid 90's.

I don't allow it to charge the batteries while running the A/C off of the generator because my 1,280w solar covers that.

When I run the A/C off of batteries there is never an issue even if the ambient temps are high. I can watch as the micro-air start to spool up for a few seconds on my display and max's out at 190a before settling down to a steady 13a draw of the A/C.