2 Years Without Changing Oil?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

95 that passes smog only gets driven 50 miles a month. The trips and environment warm up the oil on the dipstick beyond 120°F

[mich800]

pnichols wrote:

BruceMc wrote:

kellem wrote:
I have a Jeep Rubicon that gets driven roughly 1000K per year.
Change the oil after Christmas every year and run non ethanol fuel.

It's also a good idea to keep the fuel tank full to prevent rust.

While vehicles manufactured several decades ago had mild steel tanks, these days the tanks are either plastic or stainless. There's nothing to rust.

Also, there's always headspace in the tank - you can fill it all you want, but there's a few inches of air above that fuel to provide for expansion.

When I replaced the fuel pump in our 2000 Four Winds on E-350 chassis, the tank was all stainless, and the filler inlet had an internal pipe that turned down into the tank. While the fill capacity was 55 gallons, I'd bet one could put 70 to 80 gallons in it from the fuel pump opening to completely fill the tank.

Your comments reminded me of something: When filling up my E450 based Class C motorhome's gas tank, the station pumps always stop too soon. If I baby the fuel nozzle trigger very carefully and take another 5-7 minutes, I can trickle another 5-6 gallons into the "55" gallon fuel tank.

Now I wonder - when I'm doing this - if I'm merely getting a true 55 gallons into the tank ... or more than 55 gallons?

Sounds like foaming diesel. Not uncommon. If gasoline, you run the risk of overflow getting into the evap system and killing it prematurely.

[udidwht]

I pulled oil from my 94 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 454 TBI that only had 3,720 miles in 2 years. The Blackstone lab results showed no ill effect with the oil. This was Valvoline VR-1 racing 10w-30 conventional. The TBN was still high 6.1 (starts at 8).

I'm now using Valvoline full synthetic 10w-30 with Mobil 1 Extended Performance filter (same brand filter prior).

[MEXICOWANDERER]

All I have to do is turn on the A/C. Within 10 miles the dip stick gets hot enough to raise blisters. The car came OEM with a one-tube-row radiator

[ppine]

1000k is one million.
Do you mean 1,000 miles?

[time2roll]

Now find an example where they drive 50 miles and actually warm up the vehicle.
Not buying it for what MEX is talking about.

Unless the boogieman is pouring water in the crankcase it is a non issue.

Note the five year break when the example person started actually driving the car.

[Gdetrailer]

time2roll wrote:
Yes fuel produces moisture from combustion but there is virtually none of that settling into an engine parked at full operating temperature. Just saying the whole moisture thing is overblown.

:R

You might believe that moisture build up in the oil is overblown, in reality, it IS a problem related to short distance driving. While it may not cause "harm" right away or directly, it is an unwanted side effect. You would never consider dumping water into your oil? Right? well then you can tell us all as to why it is acceptable to allow the oil to build up condensation by not changing the oil.

Surely you wouldn't want to or intentionally leave heavily moisture sludged oil in your vehicles, would you?

I wouldn't.

Regular oil changes help to get rid of that extra moisture that has accumulated.

Choices are drive it much longer periodically or change the oil more often..

My Dad always told me that changing the oil regularly and often was cheap insurance, it was true back then as well as today and in some respects with the insane prices of rebuilt engines even more so true!

Would you personally want to put a $2,000-$4,000 rebuilt engine into a 1995 Spirit?

I wouldn't.

The following article pretty much parallels my own personal experience with my DWs vehicle (short 11 mile round trip drive) vs my 100 mile round trip drive..

HERE

"CarTalk.com


Moisture in engine
Maintenance/Repairs
Colt4545
Feb '13

I have a 2001 BMW 325i. A few weeks ago I noticed creamy sludge under my oil cap. My first thought was a head gasket, but it’s not overheating and the heat works great in the car. I’m not blowing white smoke when the car is warm. Im also not losing a noticeable amount of oil or coolant. The weather has been cold with snow and rain lately. I cleaned everything off, even under the valve cover and after a 20 min drive I stopped and looked at the cap again. I noticed water droplets on the bottom of the cap. There is no noticeable sludge on the dipstick when I check that. I’m looking for any advice or ideas to diegnose this car without spending a fortune.


Triedaq
Feb '13

The creamy stuff you noticed is moisture getting into the oil. Be certain that the pcv valve is working correctly. As cheap as a pcv valve is, I think I would just change it. Also, make sure the hoses leading from this valve are open.
I’ve also noticed that some brands of oil are worse about the creamy stuff forming around the cap.
Tester
Feb '13

What’s the average mileage you drive the vehicle each day?

Tester
Colt4545
Feb '13

Very short distances. I live on base. An average day maybe 3-4 miles.
Triedaq
Feb '13

I think your problem is the short distances you are driving. Take the car out for a longer drive on weekends.
Colt4545
Feb '13

I will try that. I figured a 20 min drive would give it enough time to heat up and burn off the water but there were still droplets on the cap after that. Maybe not long enough?
Tester
Feb '13

That’s your problem.

Short driving distances doesn’t allow the engine to get hot enough to where it can drive off the moisture produced from the combustion process. This moisture begins to collect in the oil and you see this sludge.

So you have two a choices. Either drive the vehicle on longer trips to drive the moisture out of the crankcase, or change the oil more frequently.

Tester
edb1961
Feb '13

Tester is right. I’ve had this problem on my truck that had an 8 mile drive to work. A new PCV valve and a few longer drives a week took care of it.
Docnick
Feb '13

Right guys! This type of driving, especially with the long BMW oil drain intervals, gives rise to rapid sludge buildup. I would install a block heater and have it on 1 hour before starting up the car. I would also change oil and filter twice as often as BMW recommends.

A long drive on the weekends is also great for driving out the 'cobwebs".
oblivion
Feb '13

Also, as soon as the oil gets hot enough to start to cook off the water (as steam), the hot steam will rise and condense on anything cooler–such as the inside of the valve cover and the oil cap. As others have mentioned, you need to get the motor good and hot regularly, especially in winter–this will go a long way to keeping the inside of the engine clean.
cwatkin
Feb '13

Take it for a good long drive once per week as others have suggested and check the PCV valve. You might want to change the oil soon too and keep an eye out for moisture. You are never getting this engine hot enough to really burn off the water that accumulates as a byproduct of combustion.

If most of your driving is such short distances, follow the “severe duty” guidelines for maintenance in the manual.
Colt4545
Feb '13

Thank you all. This is very helpful. I’ll give it a shot.
5 years later
Rob_Roy_McDonell
Mar '18

I just bought a 2001 Ford f-150. It has the same symptoms. Am trying a new PCV valve and a gasoline additive HEET. Bought in February; it 200.2K miles on it.
VDCdriver
Mar '18

I just bought a 2001 Ford f-150. It has the same symptoms

Duly noted!"

How does the water get in the crankcase?

Found a Aviation article HERE that talks about that and internal corrosion that can develop over time if not addressed and is not in my words but someone else's, its a bit lengthy but I would recommend that you read it but I will quote a little bit..

"First let’s analyze where these elements necessary for corrosion originate. No. 1, moisture: When you burn a pound of fuel, you get about a pound of moisture as a result. Most of this is expelled out of the exhaust stacks but some enters the crankcase via "blow by." Some moisture comes from the air that the engine takes in through intake and it is mixed with the combustion moisture. One other minor source is the moisture in the air that is drawn in through the engine breather tube as the engine cools after shut-down. The aircraft engine absorbs this moisture and doesn’t release it unless your oil temperature gauge gets over approximately 180 degrees F. If you have your oil temperature high enough, the moisture vaporizes and exits by way of the crankcase breather..

..In addition to the small amount of corrosive agent found in air, the primary source is the result of the combustion process. When fuel burns, the exhaust gases are corrosive. Some of these gases enter the crankcase via the "blow by" ..

..When an engine oil is exposed to heat, a process called "oxidation" is started. When oxidized oil is mixed with moisture as discussed earlier it often forms an acid which attacks metal surfaces...

..This condensed moisture will begin the corrosion process on that engine part. ..

..Clearly everyone agrees that exposed metal is the most vulnerable, but all metal in the engine is open to corrosion attack, even metal that receives the protection of oil. .."


And there are plenty of other articles that say the same thing I have mentioned can be found pertaining to this subject if you really wish to.. So far, I have not found any articles that say moisture left inside the engine is "good" for it or OK.. But you can treat your vehicle your way and I will treat mine a bit better..

[BruceMc]

pnichols, it's probably 55 gallons ish... Our Sunseeker on Chevy 4500 has a 56 gallon tank. Marketing? (Bigger is always better! B^) Maybe you are getting 60 or 61 gallons of usable capacity by nudging the extra bit!

Back to Mex's question - I wouldn't change the oil yearly if that's the case. I don't change it on any rig until the oil minder tells me to change it, independent of time. Our 2012 Canyon has about 40K on the clock; in the 8 years we've owned it, I've changed the oil 4 times. The 2016 Sunseeker has almost 15K since we purchased it in October 2015, and I've changed the oil once in both the engine and the generator.

[time2roll]

Not sure what emission controls the 1995 has but a semi sealed crankcase and fuel tank to limit emissions started in 1970 in CA and soon after in other states. If you have water in the fuel it was bad fuel. Yes fuel produces moisture from combustion but there is virtually none of that settling into an engine parked at full operating temperature. Just saying the whole moisture thing is overblown.

If MEX really wants to confirm oil condition, a small sample should be sent to the lab at the 2yr mark.

[pnichols]

BruceMc wrote:

kellem wrote:
I have a Jeep Rubicon that gets driven roughly 1000K per year.
Change the oil after Christmas every year and run non ethanol fuel.

It's also a good idea to keep the fuel tank full to prevent rust.

While vehicles manufactured several decades ago had mild steel tanks, these days the tanks are either plastic or stainless. There's nothing to rust.

Also, there's always headspace in the tank - you can fill it all you want, but there's a few inches of air above that fuel to provide for expansion.

When I replaced the fuel pump in our 2000 Four Winds on E-350 chassis, the tank was all stainless, and the filler inlet had an internal pipe that turned down into the tank. While the fill capacity was 55 gallons, I'd bet one could put 70 to 80 gallons in it from the fuel pump opening to completely fill the tank.

Your comments reminded me of something: When filling up my E450 based Class C motorhome's gas tank, the station pumps always stop too soon. If I baby the fuel nozzle trigger very carefully and take another 5-7 minutes, I can trickle another 5-6 gallons into the "55" gallon fuel tank.

Now I wonder - when I'm doing this - if I'm merely getting a true 55 gallons into the tank ... or more than 55 gallons?

[BruceMc]

kellem wrote:
I have a Jeep Rubicon that gets driven roughly 1000K per year.
Change the oil after Christmas every year and run non ethanol fuel.

It's also a good idea to keep the fuel tank full to prevent rust.

While vehicles manufactured several decades ago had mild steel tanks, these days the tanks are either plastic or stainless. There's nothing to rust.

Also, there's always headspace in the tank - you can fill it all you want, but there's a few inches of air above that fuel to provide for expansion.

When I replaced the fuel pump in our 2000 Four Winds on E-350 chassis, the tank was all stainless, and the filler inlet had an internal pipe that turned down into the tank. While the fill capacity was 55 gallons, I'd bet one could put 70 to 80 gallons in it from the fuel pump opening to completely fill the tank.

[Gdetrailer]

JimK-NY wrote:
I bought my 2018 Ram diesel in the Summer of 2018..

..The oil changes are supposed to be at 15,000 so I took it in for an oil change and they also changed the fuel filters. The dealer charges were just over $700!!!!!..

..I spent a lot of time with online research on this issue. If the warranty had not been a consideration I would not have even bothered with the oil change. Based on mileage and test results, 15,000 miles is very conservative. When condensation is not an issue, oil does not age at least over the period of a couple of years or so. Since I have been thoroughly warming up the engine that is not a concern either. I even wonder about water in the oil for short trips. How does water enter the system?

Dealer AND not just an oil change but oil change on a Diesel PLUS FUEL FILTERS on said Diesel = EXPENSIVE!

Yeah,dealer labor is not cheap, figure at a min of $120 possibly $150 PER HR.

Diesel fuel filters are insanely expensive.. I would hedge a bet that a OEM RAM fuel filter would cost you north of $150 if you bought one at the dealer..

Found a Mopar branded diesel filter kit (both filters) for $103 HERE

So, yeah, having them change the diesel filter most likely padded the bill by $150-$200 for filters plus the additional labor over top the oil change..

But, yeah $700 for oil change and fuel filter change is very pricey, but you do always have the DIY angle to save some change..

I try to avoid having dealer do my work whenever possible..

Moisture in the engine oil, pretty much most of that comes from blow by past your rings, moisture is a byproduct of any combustion process.. Some can come from the air from expansion/contraction that happens from hot to cold, the crankcase is not exactly 100% sealed, there is some allowance for the air in the crankcase to equalize in pressure with the outside air.. That process can bring in some moisture laden air into the crankcase..

Diesel fuel can also pickup moisture from the air..

[Gdetrailer]

jdc1 wrote:
LOL. Those 2018 cars sitting on the lots at your local dealer? They won't/don't change the oil just because it's a year old. Heck, that can of oil you just bought could be 5 years old....there's no expiration date on it....never has been, never will be.

They are also not "starting" those vehicles sitting on those lots for a yr either.. Often on those long term sitters they have to give them a battery jump start (yeah, I have seen that).

That does make a huge difference.

When you start ANY engine there is something called "blow by", that is a small leakage of burned and unburned gasses that get by the rings. Some of those gasses also condense on the cylinder walls and the oil control rings whisk that away and eventually that makes it's way down into the oil pan. That is normal and I would be concerned if there was not a slight leakage that would mean the rings were sized to tight..

That leakage is also greater when the engine is stone cold which is when the rings are at the smallest tolerances.. As engine and rings warm up, things expand and creates a better seal reducing "blow by" some..

You can easily store a engine for many years with oil in it with no harm as long as you changed it before storing and the oil was not old dirty used oil..

[jdc1]

LOL. Those 2018 cars sitting on the lots at your local dealer? They won't/don't change the oil just because it's a year old. Heck, that can of oil you just bought could be 5 years old....there's no expiration date on it....never has been, never will be.

[JimK-NY]

I bought my 2018 Ram diesel in the Summer of 2018. I took a 4 month RV trip and drove 13,500 miles. I start up the RV about once a month and make sure it warms up thoroughly before shutting it off. After of year I had added about 500 miles for a total of 14,000 miles. The oil changes are supposed to be at 15,000 so I took it in for an oil change and they also changed the fuel filters. The dealer charges were just over $700!!!!!

A year later I still have not gone anywhere significant due to Covid. I am still just short of 15,000 miles. To preserve the warranty I decided to change the oil myself. The oil and drain pan cost me about $75 (Rotella T6). The filters are poorly located and seemed difficult to replace so I have not done them.

DEF was the other issue. I made a mistake and my DEF tank was full so after 18 months I decided I needed to exchange the DEF. Sadly there is no drain plug but I was able to disconnect the fill line and after an hour or so of tinkering I was able to siphon out virtually all of the old DEF.

I spent a lot of time with online research on this issue. If the warranty had not been a consideration I would not have even bothered with the oil change. Based on mileage and test results, 15,000 miles is very conservative. When condensation is not an issue, oil does not age at least over the period of a couple of years or so. Since I have been thoroughly warming up the engine that is not a concern either. I even wonder about water in the oil for short trips. How does water enter the system?