Towing capacity - surprisingly little on new coaches

[way2roll]

As some of you may have read we are shopping for a new coach to full/part time in next year. In shopping I came across some surprising info on capacity.

I know a lot of gassers with the 5k or 7k hitch actually have very little capacity when doing the math. What was a surprise to me is that some DP's also suffer from this. As an example, the Forza line, the difference between the weight and GCWR on some models is only 3k. Makes the 10k hitch almost useless. Our CRV is about 3500 lbs, never mind we also like to eat, have water and clothes.

I know the actual weight needs to be done in order to arrive at real world conditions, but off the shelf advertised weights of some of these coaches simply won't work. Do they rely on people not knowing or caring? Or am I calculating something wrong?

Anyway, found it very surprising for a DP. Makes shopping and finding models you like a real let down.

[tropical36]

way2roll wrote:
As some of you may have read we are shopping for a new coach to full/part time in next year. In shopping I came across some surprising info on capacity.

I know a lot of gassers with the 5k or 7k hitch actually have very little capacity when doing the math. What was a surprise to me is that some DP's also suffer from this. As an example, the Forza line, the difference between the weight and GCWR on some models is only 3k. Makes the 10k hitch almost useless. Our CRV is about 3500 lbs, never mind we also like to eat, have water and clothes.

I know the actual weight needs to be done in order to arrive at real world conditions, but off the shelf advertised weights of some of these coaches simply won't work. Do they rely on people not knowing or caring? Or am I calculating something wrong?

Anyway, found it very surprising for a DP. Makes shopping and finding models you like a real let down.

I noticed this, when friends bought a new 17 Pace Arrow, which is good for about 800lbs of towing capacity. Still they pull a jeep toad.
This DP's specs are even less than our old gasser, but only because of the GM tranny and most sure, that the tranny is the weak link with the Pace, as well.
On another note, our present coach is good for 15Klbs tow and 1500lbs hitch weight. Sounds good, along with more than a ton left of CCC, but just so happens that the rear axle is at max. when loaded, so probably not so good if pulling a heavy trailer.
Not a factor with our four down toad, but just saying.....
Oh well and just as long as they continue to install huge TV's and fireplaces, sales will continue to flourish.

[irishtom29]

schlep1967 wrote:
It would be interesting to talk to an engineer from the manufacturer. What is the limiting factor in the GCWR? Is it the brakes? If it is and the toad has a braking system is that covered? I know that doesn't change the number but it may be the reality.

As for the Ford F53 chassis: Ford states that the brakes are rated for the GVWR of the coach, not the GCWR, and recommends auxiliary braking systems when the combined weight of coach and towed vehicle exceeds the GVWR.

I have a Ford based coach with a GVWR of 24,000, a CCWR of 30,000 and a hitch rated at 5000. The coach weighs 22,500 loaded and pulls a car that weighs, rounding up, 5000 pounds. Thus my combined weight is 27,5000, leaving 2500 pounds of unused GCWR.

I wonder if the chassis is up to handling a hitch of higher capacity.

[ferndaleflyer]

Winnebago Luxor, Monaco Windsor, and Monaco Dynasty. All Cummins power 325, 350 and 450hp. One with tag axel. Probably all over loaded but all handled and towed and stopped well. Had one tire failure and some kind of air suspension balancing valve one time. Been pretty lucky as far as on road failures. Had to leave it once for a radiator hose failure but that was close to home.

[way2roll]

ferndaleflyer wrote:
I am one of those racers that tow well over 10,000lbs as my 32ft 3 axel enclosed trailer weighs 5000lbs + a 3500lb car, arv, tools, fuel, etc. In 20+ years and 3 different DPs. Coast to coast and border and 1/2 a million miles with never a single problem. Proper hitch, brakes, and attention to driving all makes it happen. But you need to do whatever you are comfortable with and is legal as I have crossed many a scale also with never a question.

But what kind of rig do you have? It could be very well you are within capacity.

[ferndaleflyer]

I am one of those racers that tow well over 10,000lbs as my 32ft 3 axel enclosed trailer weighs 5000lbs + a 3500lb car, arv, tools, fuel, etc. In 20+ years and 3 different DPs. Coast to coast and border and 1/2 a million miles with never a single problem. Proper hitch, brakes, and attention to driving all makes it happen. But you need to do whatever you are comfortable with and is legal as I have crossed many a scale also with never a question.

[Wanderlost]

Ed C wrote:
You really have to know what you need before you buy. If you want a particular motor home you have to settle for a toad it can pull, or if you want to pull a full size pickup realize you are going to need a DP.

Specifically, you need a big DP, not the entry level DP.

[Ed_C]

You really have to know what you need before you buy. If you want a particular motor home you have to settle for a toad it can pull, or if you want to pull a full size pickup realize you are going to need a DP.

[way2roll]

schlep1967 wrote:
It would be interesting to talk to an engineer from the manufacturer. What is the limiting factor in the GCWR? Is it the brakes? If it is and the toad has a braking system is that covered? I know that doesn't change the number but it may be the reality.

From what I gather doing some reading, the limiting factor is the Engine/tranny Combo. The 340HP paired with the 2500 trans is what most manufacturers in entry level DP's use. In checking all their specs, the tow capacity ranges 3-4k where the specs are pretty consistent - GVWR is 26K and GCWR is 30K - give or take. Some owners claim that loaded for travel their actual weights are below the stated 26k giving them 5k in tow capacity. I also read the 340/2500 engine/trans combo max tow capacity is 5k. I know little next to nothing about diesel engine and transmissions so I can't validate any of that - it's just what I've been reading - Although it's pretty consistent thought across several forums.

If that is true, why bother putting a 10k hitch on it? Every single DP I looked at with this combo can only tow 3-5k. BTW, I am ok if the number is 4-5k. Anything less than 4k and it's a deal breaker.

[rk911]

schlep1967 wrote:
It would be interesting to talk to an engineer from the manufacturer. What is the limiting factor in the GCWR? Is it the brakes? If it is and the toad has a braking system is that covered? I know that doesn't change the number but it may be the reality.

yes, it would be interesting. somewhere in the ton of paperwork we received from Winnebago for our current (2016 Suncruiser 38Q) and the MH we traded in for the 38Q (2000 Suncruiser 35U) was a warning that the brakes on the MH chassis were rated for ONLY the GVWR of the MH.

[schlep1967]

It would be interesting to talk to an engineer from the manufacturer. What is the limiting factor in the GCWR? Is it the brakes? If it is and the toad has a braking system is that covered? I know that doesn't change the number but it may be the reality.

[wildtoad]

I don’t think the weight limits of the hitch is misleading, but an accurate measure of what the hitch can support. When they make the hitch they have no idea what they hitch will be attached to, or how much the vehicle can handle. What other measure do they have or would you realistically like to see FROM the hitch maker? A jeans maker will say their pants will handle a man with a size 38 waist. It’s not their fault that you can’t fit your size 44 butt in them.

I do think perhaps the manufacturer should post a big yellow sign that says based on the a fully loaded vehicle per stated weights, how much the vehicle as delivered can tow. Especially for those that are weak in math, or have no clue what the numbers already provided mean.

It would also be nice, if not already considered, by the manufacturer of the MH to make sure their designs and contents leave sufficient room for towing (not to mention contents) a average size car. Of course it doesn’t help much when the size and weight of toads has increased with the move to SUV’s. But I don’t give this one much hope. I personally believe that no RV designed actually uses one, or they would not put things where they do.

[dodge_guy]

Some Gas MH’s like mine have a 4k lb CCC. While other like my buddy’s 17 Fleetwood Bounder have only 1700lbs.
With mine I can actually tow 6k lbs with how I load for a trip. However I would have to replace the hitch.

I never realized how low some of the DP’s could be. Thanks for the info. Never would’ve thought it would be an issue on a DP.

[FloridaRosebud]

way2roll wrote:

ferndaleflyer wrote:
Really. Plenty of race tracks in your area. Go look at what they are pulling. If the hitch is substantial enough and the motor has enough horsepower they do it. Some use a “Trailer Toad” to carry the tongue weight. Many DPs can be had with 4-500hp. A Freightliner chassis will handle it.

I realize there are plenty of MH's out there that don't suffer from lack of capacity. I was merely stating that a lot of new MH's do. And I was naive enough to think that even entry level Dp's were immune to this by virtue of being a DP. Seems like I was wrong.

I like to do things the proper way, which means weighing loaded for travel, doing the math and ensuring I am within capacity. IMHO it's pretty irresponsible for manufacturers to make the tolerances in capacity so tight that the 10k hitch they like to tout as a selling point, is worthless and frankly misleading. By the time you load people, water, food, clothes etc, there's nothing left. But unless buyers do their homework they are left with the understanding that it has a 10k hitch so I can tow 10k. And I am confident there isn't a dealer out there that will advise them otherwise without being prodded.

Glad you are doing this the right way. Our 2006 gasser has a 5k hitch, but if you do the math and load the MH to it's carrying capacity there is only 4k left for towing. My point is this is probably not a new thing AFA manufacturers playing with the numbers.

Al

[way2roll]

ferndaleflyer wrote:
Really. Plenty of race tracks in your area. Go look at what they are pulling. If the hitch is substantial enough and the motor has enough horsepower they do it. Some use a “Trailer Toad” to carry the tongue weight. Many DPs can be had with 4-500hp. A Freightliner chassis will handle it.

I realize there are plenty of MH's out there that don't suffer from lack of capacity. I was merely stating that a lot of new MH's do. And I was naive enough to think that even entry level Dp's were immune to this by virtue of being a DP. Seems like I was wrong.

I like to do things the proper way, which means weighing loaded for travel, doing the math and ensuring I am within capacity. IMHO it's pretty irresponsible for manufacturers to make the tolerances in capacity so tight that the 10k hitch they like to tout as a selling point, is worthless and frankly misleading. By the time you load people, water, food, clothes etc, there's nothing left. But unless buyers do their homework they are left with the understanding that it has a 10k hitch so I can tow 10k. And I am confident there isn't a dealer out there that will advise them otherwise without being prodded.