2006 Grayhawk Ford e450 v-10: Power increase

[ccchuck]

looking for ideas to increase uphill power -
cheapest to expensive, that you've had success with...

[map40]

pnichols wrote:
As a side note: I never operate our motorhome's V10 at WOT. I climb grades with Tow/Haul mode engaged and then push the gas pedal down until the tachometer reads no higher than 4000 RPM. Whatever gear and MPH speed results is what it is and I hold at that until the grade is over. I could tap more V10 horsepower by using WOT but why push it, even though the V10 can "take it".

BTW, given our RV'ing style of often being way out there driving or camping in the Western U.S., chassis reliability is the our highest priority -> way above floorplan, number of batteries, number of solar panels, tank sizes, number of slide outs, type of refrigerator, number of televisions, size of shower, comfort of cab seats, etc..

Power curve of the V10 peaks between 3200 and 4200. You can get more power reving it higher but you will be consuming more fuel. Your approach is the most conservative from the point of view of fuel consumption and powertrain lifespan conservation

[map40]

marcsbigfoot20b27 wrote:
Got the 5star tune on my dads 2006 31 ft motorhome, made a big difference. Pulls the hills better, better shifting and better throttle response.

According to them, many of the V10 in motorhomes never go into open loop fuel enrichment at WOT, this means there is more unused power left......argue away.

They are correct, no EFI engine ever goes into WOT no matter what you do or how you tune it. To get the computer to do WOT you have to be in a theoretical 20K feet above see level, maximun load, no elevation oxigen and a bunch of other variables.
No tuner will be able to get the engine in WOT either, unless you change the ECU and the injection system.

[pnichols]

As a side note: I never operate our motorhome's V10 at WOT. I climb grades with Tow/Haul mode engaged and then push the gas pedal down until the tachometer reads no higher than 4000 RPM. Whatever gear and MPH speed results is what it is and I hold at that until the grade is over. I could tap more V10 horsepower by using WOT but why push it, even though the V10 can "take it".

BTW, given our RV'ing style of often being way out there driving or camping in the Western U.S., chassis reliability is the our highest priority -> way above floorplan, number of batteries, number of solar panels, tank sizes, number of slide outs, type of refrigerator, number of televisions, size of shower, comfort of cab seats, etc..

[marcsbigfoot20b]

Got the 5star tune on my dads 2006 31 ft motorhome, made a big difference. Pulls the hills better, better shifting and better throttle response.

According to them, many of the V10 in motorhomes never go into open loop fuel enrichment at WOT, this means there is more unused power left......argue away.

[rentman99]

Good post. Thanks for the info..

[map40]

rentman99 wrote:
"Depends what you call better."

Driveabilty. Downshifting to 4k rpm every 3-4 miles was miserable.

We're not talking NO2 boost here, just better power management. I wouldn't expect Ford engineers to be able to ship one ECM program that is perfect for all drivers/applications.

You seem concerned about the transmission stress. I'd much rather pull a transmission than an engine. In the bigger picture, I think proper maintenance like clean fluids and changing the filters regularly is the best thing you can do for engines/transmissions.

"You don't get more horsepower for free." Eh, I'm not so sure Ford had my RV at the top of they're list when optimizing the ECM patterns. It's not all about HP anyway.

I get what you're saying about after market mods, but when you have users posting improvements w/o increasing fuel consumption (sometimes even improvements), you're really just talking about better power management.

I know first hand the chassis you have was designed specifically for an RV. The guy that designed the engine/tranny combination for those was a friend of mine, and they program the ECU for the application.
On the other side, I agree with you that Maintenance goes a long way. Changing the programming will affect your lifespan. The question is: Do you care? Will you use it 300K miles?
Now, if you don't believe me, I can offer proff of this. Cruise America buys their RVs custom made, and their deal with Ford is that they have full warranty for the life of the coach until the coach is sold. Ford granted such warranty ONLY if they agreed to customized Tow/Hawl mode on at engine start up. They did this because the transmission will run the engine higher, and it suffers significantly less at higher RPMs. Ask anybody who bought an ex-rental from Cruise America and they will tell you their tow/hawl mode is on always.
As you see, Ford does customize their chassis for the specific application, and they understand exactly how their components are affected by changin parameters.
To your point, you may be OK with your engine/tranmission only lasting 100K-150K, and that is OK. I just wanted to make sure I shared the knowledge so you could make an informed desition.
On a different note, if you want to play with engine parameters, the Ford platform is the best one to do it. It is the most reliable platform you can find in RVs. I would even put it ahead of some DPs.
I an a Dodge and Chrysler guy, but my daily driver is a 2000 Town car Cartier L (Long), just broken into with 521K miles.

[camperdave]

I have a 5 star tune on my E350 van (1998 V10 that used to pull a 5k travel trailer). It was a little power boost, the big advantage is the handling of the transmission. I think that is negated somewhat with a 2006+ motorhome (5 speed trans) though. I also installed a higher flowing open air filter. Sounds cool, unless you want to actually have a conversation when climbing a hill lol. That thing is LOUD at WOT.

I installed neither on my 2004 chassis motorhome. It's just fine as it is, and I don't feel like the $/benefit ratio is there.

A Banks kit would probably help, but wow are they proud of their stuff... Not for me.

I'll settle for dropping out of overdrive on overpasses, and climbing big hills at 45mph in 2nd. :B

[pnichols]

I agree completely with what Marcos ("map40") said above.

I trust the Ford engineers way, way, way, more than after-market engineer/technicain software tinkerers.

BTW engine horsepower, and torque on the drive axles ... are all that count, and as such I don't mind at all my V10's necessary high RPM ... to generate the necessary horsepower, to spin the necessary gears, to create the necessary torque on the two rear drive axles.

I hope that my trust gets me 300K+ miles of engine life.

[rentman99]

"Depends what you call better."

Driveabilty. Downshifting to 4k rpm every 3-4 miles was miserable.

We're not talking NO2 boost here, just better power management. I wouldn't expect Ford engineers to be able to ship one ECM program that is perfect for all drivers/applications.

You seem concerned about the transmission stress. I'd much rather pull a transmission than an engine. In the bigger picture, I think proper maintenance like clean fluids and changing the filters regularly is the best thing you can do for engines/transmissions.

"You don't get more horsepower for free." Eh, I'm not so sure Ford had my RV at the top of they're list when optimizing the ECM patterns. It's not all about HP anyway.

I get what you're saying about after market mods, but when you have users posting improvements w/o increasing fuel consumption (sometimes even improvements), you're really just talking about better power management.

[map40]

rentman99 wrote:
I also purchased the 5 Star Super Tune, and I LOVE it! Noticeable increase in power and shifts LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO! I'm usually pulling a ski boat and the downshifting was ridiculous. Even when not towing, the slightest upgrade would cause the downshifting.

The Super Tune is money well spent. You'll definitely see results.

The V10 with the 5 or 6 speed tranny are designed to protect the components. The downshifting is done to prevent excessive wear in the transmission. With the factory specs that powertrain combination is rated for 300K miles (several of my motorhomes are proof of that, reaching numbers close to that without major breakdowns). The tuner changes the settings provided by Ford engineers. Can it give you different performance? Yes. Is it better? Depends what you call better. If the tranny is not downshifting as before, it is being put through unnecesary stress. If you are OK with shortening the lifespan of your powertrain, then it is OK.
To sum it up, You don't get more horsepower for free. No physical changes mean no changes. The tuners will affect the lifespan of your powertraing. Modifications to the airflow system will provide power increase without reducing the lifespan, but now you have more heat (headers) or risk of contaminated air (K&N filter).
I still have several friends in Dearborn that designed that engine. They are not dumb people, believe me. If there is a way to get more power out of the engine without a compromise, they would have done it. Actually, they did. The 3 valve per cilynder design is rated to 362HP.
I would leave it as it is...

[pnichols]

rentman99 wrote:
I also purchased the 5 Star Super Tune, and I LOVE it! Noticeable increase in power and shifts LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO! I'm usually pulling a ski boat and the downshifting was ridiculous. Even when not towing, the slightest upgrade would cause the downshifting.

The Super Tune is money well spent. You'll definitely see results.

Hmmm ... even in Tow/Haul mode?

I drive our V10 powered motorhome a lot with it's Tow/Haul mode invoked - since our E450 chassis is "hauling" a lot of weight all the time - and in this mode the shifting is a lot more controlled and nicely reduced from what it is when not using this mode.

I wonder what state vehicle clean air regulations are not being met with any changes to stock engine settings.

[rentman99]

I also purchased the 5 Star Super Tune, and I LOVE it! Noticeable increase in power and shifts LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO! I'm usually pulling a ski boat and the downshifting was ridiculous. Even when not towing, the slightest upgrade would cause the downshifting.

The Super Tune is money well spent. You'll definitely see results.

[pnichols]

ccchuck wrote:

DrewE wrote:

pauldub wrote:
Push harder on the gas pedal and let the engine scream, really.

x2 on this. The Ford V10 needs to rev to produce power, more so than many truck engines, and with ten cylinders it sounds like it's about to self-destruct...but it isn't, and it can operate like that as long as is needed.

That said, you of course are not going to get car-like acceleration out of a class C motorhome...even little economy car-like acceleration.

wow... ok - any other advice?

Hmmm ... what really would you like to improve?

i.e. - Do you need/want more horsepower than your V10 puts out at it's maximum of 305 HP ... or is it's 305 HP maximum probably OK ... but you just don't like the way you have to use the engine to tap it's horsepower?

Note that many of the diesel engines that power and/or pull RVs have horsepower maximums considerably less than 305 HP. It's just that these diesel engines have high crankshaft torque at whatever HP they are putting out ... and that they put out this torque and HP at lower crankshaft RPM values due to the inherent characteristics of diesel engine technology.

The only torque that counts is the torque on the drive wheels' axles, and how you develop this torque is by converting any raw horsepower that the engine is putting out at any given engine RPM into drive axle torque through use of gearing between the engine's crankshaft and the drive axles.

What the above means is -> you must tap whatever of your V10's horsepower is needed to push along your particular RV at any particular speed on any particular road grade. How you call into play your V10's horsepower is to rev it up to whatever RPM is needed to produce whatever horsepower is needed so as to convert this horsepower (using the proper gears) into the needed torque on the drive wheels.

For the V10, more RPM is needed than what we are used to from good old truck V8 gas engines and diesel engines. We have to just get used to the sound ... along with any anxiety that our V10 may break while making it's horsepower!

[Gjac]

I have a 1995 454 TBI eng in a 15,000 lb Class A and have done the following to improve performance. I measured performance by 40-60 mph times. When I first bought the MH it took 22 secs to go from 40 -60 mph. A tune up, plugs wires distributor cap brought it down to 19 secs. Headers, FF mufflers and CAI reduced it to 14 secs. Headers would add about 80 HP to the older 454's and 460's the newer V-10's will probably be less. Check on the Banks web site for your year eng and type for HP increase. Advanced timing from 4 degrees BTDC(stock) to 9 degrees BTDC further reduced time to 12 secs. Also transmission no longer downshifts at the slightest hill and engine temps were reduced only rarely the fan clutch come on any more except on very steep hills out west. My stock engine only produced 230 HP, the mods brought it up to a little over 300 hp. Nothing increased the MPG except installing a Vacuum gauge and watching it. 8.5 mpgs went to 8.7 mpgs if I use it when traveling. If you don't know what your baseline performance is before any mods you won't know what the increase will be and it is hard to tell just by noise or "seat of the pants dyno". So before spending a lot of money be careful when asking your friends about their mods if the just tell you it sounds or feels like better performance.