RVs and the NEC

[D_E_Bishop]

While I am probably opening a huge can of worms here, I would like to clear up a few things if possible.

The NEC is really a product of the NFPA.

The NEC or the Code is the National Electrical Code, it is neither a CODE(law or rule) nor is it National. In fact there are three states that have not adopted the NEC.

The NFPA is the National Fire Protection Association, prepared and funded in part by insurance underwriters.

The fact that RVIA(RV Industry Association) has adopted the NEC as the recommended standard for electrical installations in RVs, it has no requirement that RV builders must follow the NEC. It is not a AHJ.

This LINK goes to one mans interpretation of what the Code is, you can accept it or reject it but it is accurate.

Additionally, the Code does not and cannot require the builder of a RV park to install RV pedestals or how many or what capacity it must install. It only covers what pedestals are acceptable to the NFPA.

If this is to far off course, the Mod or Admin should remove it, that is the way it works.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

the info

the camaraderie

the rutting

[3_tons]

I’ve been busy converting my dual voltage power saw (120 or 240v) to run on 240v by using the ground in the power cord as a neutral...Works great though I can’t recommend it....

[time2roll]

D.E.Bishop wrote:
In fact there are three states that have not adopted the NEC.

What do they follow?

[D_E_Bishop]

In response to BB_TX, you may be correct but...

[url=]NFPA INCLUDES

[BillyBob_Jim]

dougrainer wrote:

BillyBob Jim wrote:

dougrainer wrote:

BillyBob Jim wrote:

JaxDad wrote:


Make no mistake though, that seal by the door certifying the unit as conforming to NFPA 1192 or whichever standard it's built to is most certainly a legal requirement.

NFPA compliance is a voluntary requirement companies claim they meet. Having the RVIA seal is not mandatory. All that seal says is the manufacturer is a member of the RV Industry Association and claims they comply with NFPA, ANSI, whatever. Nothing says you have to be a member of RVIA to build and sell RVs. The RV Industry Association lobbies hard for minimum requirements. Why do you think most states have no lemon laws for towables. Bingo....the RVIA. A dead giveaway is RVbusiness.com which is sponsored by RVIA. They sugar coat and carefully select every article they have ever published, and are very good at turning a turd of an industry into a Rose.

There are no code inspectors on or at the end of the line in RV factories certifying anything meets anything else. If one feels good and safe because they have an RVIA seal that's what its designed to do, mission accomplished. Reality is slightly different when brakes quit working, the plumbing and LPG system has multiple leaks, and the wiring connections are never tightened..

You can make all the nonsense claims you want. The fact is, YOU have no idea how RV's are really built. There IS a Final inspection and the plumbing is tested and LP is tested. The RVIA seal is not required, But, each seal must be paid for to the RVIA. The RVIA does inspect RVIA members to make sure the minimum standards are met. Do, things get missed? YES. But, EACH dealer is supposed to do a full PDI on every new unit sold and that includes Plumbing checks and LP Manometer test. IF dealers fail to do that, that puts them at liability if there is a LP leak they missed. There is no requirement that Dealers do these PDI's and tests, but a dealer is foolish to not do them. Sometimes that is the difference between that great low price and what other dealers are selling for. As to the "Yoder" brothers, 40 years ago that would be a true statement. In Michiana today the majority of RV line workers are NOT Mennonite or Amish. Doug

Ooooops forgot you are the all knowing swami where RVs are concerned.....I stand corrected. I assume all those gents with the bowl haircuts, beards, and homemade shirts and gals with the dresses and bonnets at the 5 or 6 factories I have been through around Goshen and Elkhart were Democrats. And your 100% correct, lots of things get missed. LOTS.

You just joined. FYI. I worked in Goshen/Middlebury and lived there from 1970 til 1979. I CLEANED the production plants after school and then worked building Motorhomes and Trailers. Then I moved and became a RV technician starting in 1979. Now, that puts ME as an obvious expert. You may not like the idea that there is someone like me on these forums, but I am here and some newcomer can make all the derogatory comments he wants. People that have followed my posts know I am usually spot on and when I make a mistake I own up to it. I make regular training visits back to Michiana at least every few years and also go thru the plants. The Plant people have evolved to regular people and Mennonite and Amish make up very few of the total plant people. Doug
PS, you can read my post but in general keep your mouth shut when it comes to responding about me.

No.....I'll reserve the right to respond about whatever pleases me posted by whomever no matter when I joined. FYI I have been involved with plenty of folks with 40 years under their belt in trades or professions whom were only experts in their own minds.
Have a great holiday.

[dougrainer]

BillyBob Jim wrote:

dougrainer wrote:

BillyBob Jim wrote:

JaxDad wrote:


Make no mistake though, that seal by the door certifying the unit as conforming to NFPA 1192 or whichever standard it's built to is most certainly a legal requirement.

NFPA compliance is a voluntary requirement companies claim they meet. Having the RVIA seal is not mandatory. All that seal says is the manufacturer is a member of the RV Industry Association and claims they comply with NFPA, ANSI, whatever. Nothing says you have to be a member of RVIA to build and sell RVs. The RV Industry Association lobbies hard for minimum requirements. Why do you think most states have no lemon laws for towables. Bingo....the RVIA. A dead giveaway is RVbusiness.com which is sponsored by RVIA. They sugar coat and carefully select every article they have ever published, and are very good at turning a turd of an industry into a Rose.

There are no code inspectors on or at the end of the line in RV factories certifying anything meets anything else. If one feels good and safe because they have an RVIA seal that's what its designed to do, mission accomplished. Reality is slightly different when brakes quit working, the plumbing and LPG system has multiple leaks, and the wiring connections are never tightened..

You can make all the nonsense claims you want. The fact is, YOU have no idea how RV's are really built. There IS a Final inspection and the plumbing is tested and LP is tested. The RVIA seal is not required, But, each seal must be paid for to the RVIA. The RVIA does inspect RVIA members to make sure the minimum standards are met. Do, things get missed? YES. But, EACH dealer is supposed to do a full PDI on every new unit sold and that includes Plumbing checks and LP Manometer test. IF dealers fail to do that, that puts them at liability if there is a LP leak they missed. There is no requirement that Dealers do these PDI's and tests, but a dealer is foolish to not do them. Sometimes that is the difference between that great low price and what other dealers are selling for. As to the "Yoder" brothers, 40 years ago that would be a true statement. In Michiana today the majority of RV line workers are NOT Mennonite or Amish. Doug

Ooooops forgot you are the all knowing swami where RVs are concerned.....I stand corrected. I assume all those gents with the bowl haircuts, beards, and homemade shirts and gals with the dresses and bonnets at the 5 or 6 factories I have been through around Goshen and Elkhart were Democrats. And your 100% correct, lots of things get missed. LOTS.

You just joined. FYI. I worked in Goshen/Middlebury and lived there from 1970 til 1979. I CLEANED the production plants after school and then worked building Motorhomes and Trailers. Then I moved and became a RV technician starting in 1979. Now, that puts ME as an obvious expert. You may not like the idea that there is someone like me on these forums, but I am here and some newcomer can make all the derogatory comments he wants. People that have followed my posts know I am usually spot on and when I make a mistake I own up to it. I make regular training visits back to Michiana at least every few years and also go thru the plants. The Plant people have evolved to regular people and Mennonite and Amish make up very few of the total plant people. Doug
PS, you can read my post but in general keep your mouth shut when it comes to responding about me.

[dougrainer]

road-runner wrote:

dougrainer wrote:

You can make all the nonsense claims you want. The fact is, YOU have no idea how RV's are really built. There IS a Final inspection and the plumbing is tested and LP is tested.

To be clear, I'm not contradicting this statement. Of the 80 build defects I found when my motorhome was new, none of them involved the plumbing or propane system. Several of the defects were in the DC electrical system and had a very real risk of starting a fire. If the DC system was inspected it was a fraud.

You are confusing a Final inspection with a in depth inspection. You assume an in depth inspection. What they do is a system check of operations. The pressure test both the LP and Water system. Finding 80 defects means YOUR dealer did a lousy PDI. Granted, there should not be 80 defects, but a good dealer would have found most of those before you did. Doug

[road-runner]

dougrainer wrote:

You can make all the nonsense claims you want. The fact is, YOU have no idea how RV's are really built. There IS a Final inspection and the plumbing is tested and LP is tested.

To be clear, I'm not contradicting this statement. Of the 80 build defects I found when my motorhome was new, none of them involved the plumbing or propane system. Several of the defects were in the DC electrical system and had a very real risk of starting a fire. If the DC system was inspected it was a fraud.

[JaxDad]

BillyBob Jim wrote:

JaxDad wrote:


Make no mistake though, that seal by the door certifying the unit as conforming to NFPA 1192 or whichever standard it's built to is most certainly a legal requirement.

NFPA compliance is a voluntary requirement companies claim they meet. Having the RVIA seal is not mandatory. All that seal says is the manufacturer is a member of the RV Industry Association and claims they comply with NFPA, ANSI, whatever. Nothing says you have to be a member of RVIA to build and sell RVs. The RV Industry Association lobbies hard for minimum requirements. Why do you think most states have no lemon laws for towables. Bingo....the RVIA. A dead giveaway is RVbusiness.com which is sponsored by RVIA. They sugar coat and carefully select every article they have ever published, and are very good at turning a turd of an industry into a Rose.

There are no code inspectors on or at the end of the line in RV factories certifying anything meets anything else. If one feels good and safe because they have an RVIA seal that's what its designed to do, mission accomplished. Reality is slightly different when brakes quit working, the plumbing and LPG system has multiple leaks, and the wiring connections are never tightened..

Well, it's voluntary to the point where it's legally required. LOL.



As an example, in Texas the Transportation Code makes it illegal to tow a trailer on any public road if it has a built in propane system unless it meets NFPA 1192 standards and bears proof of same.



In California the Health and Safety Code - HSC Div 13, PART 2 , CHAPTER 4, Section 18027.3.

"h) It is unlawful for any person to do either of the following:
(2) Alter or convert, or cause to be altered or converted, any recreational vehicle in a manner that is inconsistent with ANSI Standard No. A119.2 or A119.5 or the NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles when the recreational vehicle is used, occupied, sold, or offered for sale within this state."

In California's Statutes, at 18871.5 states;

"(b) A recreational vehicle that does not bear a label, an insignia, or an insignia of approval, as required by subdivision (f) or (g) of Section 18027.3, may not occupy any lot in a park unless the vehicle owner provides reasonable proof of compliance with ANSI Standard No. A119.2 or A119.5 depending upon whether it is a recreational vehicle or park trailer....." (NB: ANSI 119.2 is the same as NFPA 1192)



In the case of Oregon it is incorporated into the Building Codes Division - Chapter 918 says at 918-525-0040;

"(1) The minimum safety standards for recreational vehicles are adopted pursuant to OAR chapter 918, division 8.

(2) Effective January 19, 2017, the following standards are adopted by reference as the standards for the manufacture of recreational vehicles:

(a) The 2015 Edition of NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles, as published by the National Fire Protection Association.

(b) The 2014 Edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code, specifically but not limited to, Article 551 pertaining to Recreational Vehicles, as published by the National Fire Protection Association.

(c) The 2014 Edition of ANSI/RVIA Standard for Low Voltage Systems in Conversion and Recreational Vehicles, as published by the Recreational Vehicle Industry Association."




So yes, it's LAW, of course you could just consider it as 'voluntary' and get sued or charged I guess.

[valhalla360]

RayJayco wrote:
Right is right and when you are right, defend it!

Unless you give me a darn good reason, I'm sticking with industry standard. I'm not bothering to defend anything.

[RayJayco]

BB_TX wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
......
- Good luck getting an engineer to sign and stamp plans that violate the NEC. We engineers tend to be a conservative lot and it's not fun explaining to a judge why you didn't follow industry practice.

Not to mention possibly losing their P.E. license.

Any licensed professional will protect their license. I know that I do.
No one can know everything and that includes officials. Right is right and when you are right, defend it!

Have a safe and happy Memorial Day!

[RayJayco]

valhalla360 wrote:

RayJayco wrote:
An engineer (for a specific field) can override (in their specific field) a building inspector by signing off on it and accepting responsibility.

In theory except:
- You have to convince the inspector that the PE has that authority, if you want the final approval on your permit.
- A PE license in most states is not field specific, so in theory any PE can do this, though most sane PE's won't go outside their field. (also most states accept a PE from other states as it's largely been standardized across the country with just a few exceptions)
- Good luck getting an engineer to sign and stamp plans that violate the NEC. We engineers tend to be a conservative lot and it's not fun explaining to a judge why you didn't follow industry practice.

Thanks for the engineers perspective!

I saw it happen with a structural engineer some years back.
We are a GC, electrical and refrigeration company that does supermarkets, shopping centers and such. Not all inspectors or even plan reviewers are equal or even qualified to do their job. Some are completely clueless. I won't even start telling how many that I have had to explain stuff to.

Have a safe and happy Memorial Day!

[cavie]

OK Boys Play nice. We are just trying to teach the newbies not see who knows what.Just state your case with facts and leave it alone.

[BB_TX]

valhalla360 wrote:
......
- Good luck getting an engineer to sign and stamp plans that violate the NEC. We engineers tend to be a conservative lot and it's not fun explaining to a judge why you didn't follow industry practice.

Not to mention possibly losing their P.E. license.