Trailer brakes

[camperforlife]

I have a Cougar TT 31RKS that is 35' long and comes in at about 8500lbs loaded. I tow with a '11 GMC Sierra 2500HD. The trailer is 4 years old and I have never been able to get the GMC factory brake control to lock the brakes at low speed like they say it should in the setup instructions. I have the boost set at the full 10.

I don't feel like I am lacking in brakes. I have never felt like I couldn't stop in time. In a panic situation the trailer brakes have locked.

I've had two very reputable shops service the brakes over the last couple years and they say everything is good. Should I just get over the fact that I can't manually lock the brakes like I've been able to on every other trailer I've owned?

[BenK]

Happy New Years everyone !!!

This is a GREAT thread and add 2¢....

Here is the best video showing the HOW2 properly solder two wires together
YouTube HOW2 solder two wires together


Ditto it, but change mine to RTV (a small amount goes a long way) and is water tight

Cold solder joints also has a higher impedance than a proper joint and has it 'porous' enough to wick in moisture/etc to rot the joint over time

If crimping, make sure the plastic barrel extends well past the joint and do NOT strip the wire insulation too far back. The crimp barrel MUST extend over the wire insulation. I use a heat shrink tube & RTV to further seal the barrel to wire insulation

[ktmrfs]

blt2ski wrote:
Reading Les's article. He mentions using marine wire vs auto wire. This is something I might recommend too. Marine wire vs auto, both are copper. BUT< the marine wire is tinned over copper. So it will not degrade as fast etc, as non tin coated wire.
Another to note, some manufactures sell tin coated marine wire, that is the same diam as non coated, along with the same gauge rating/sizing. One that I know of, uses a slightly larger diam for a given gauge, that way you get the same amount of copper as a non coated! So you have the same amount of amps etc that can get thru the wire. assuming non is 14 gauge, the tin coated should be approx a 12 gauge actual size as compared to a 14 non. This will cost you more per foot. At the end of the day, this extra cost could be worth it.
As far as soldering vs crimping........I've personally seen some say soldering is better, other crimping. If you do not crimp correctly, you have an issue with no or a lower contact connection, so loss of conductivity, amps etc. Then again, if one does not know how to solder, like myself......crimping is probably a better/best option. Along with if you need a water tight fitting, put a heated shrink wrap equal over the crimp fitting, and you have a water tight fit. Assuming you do this correctly too! LOL, assuming we are ALL human here, and as Ben says, Mr Murphy can show up at any time or place or you name it.....shift happens!
At the end of the day tho, we all want brakes that will work on our trailers. No matter what they are for, be it an RV, Boat, Equipment, job shack trailer, office....... Along with having them meet the on the road field testing LEO's can put you through if they feel you might have a non working brake system. Their are a few more items than just the one I mentioned, and jimlim also mentioned. Like your battery for the brakes if you have a complete disconnect....if tested, needs at least 11.6-11.8V. So if you use a house battery, were using it dry the night before, and take off, get pulled over really quick, you battery bank may not be charged enough for the field test with a volt meter.....something to think about if you do this.

marty

I agree on the marine wire.
some of the marine wire is made from smaller gauge strands which makes it more flexible, and easier to work with.

On the soldering vs. crimp. either if done correctly makes a reliable connection. But to solder well takes experience and the joint much be mechanically interconnected then soldered. Don't rely on solder for the mechanical joint. And to much solder can end up causing a failure at the end of the solder joint. it makes a stress point during flex. For crimp, improper crimping can also yield a poor joint.

At one time the company I worked at, doing mil spec products did extensive research on crimp vs. solder and on wire interconnect went with crimp. a crimp done correctly is a gas tight seal and can be done consistently with proper tools and less training than soldered connection. And they didn't suffer from flex failures at the joint interconnect. Field failure rate of crimped joints was virtually zero and better than field failure rate of previously similar connections soldered.

But the $5.00 crimper found at big box stores isn't a good crimper.

If you are truely skilled at soldering and don't have a quality crimper, solder. Otherwise IMHO invest in some good crimp tools with interchangeable jaws for various connectors and crimp.

and heat shrink used properly, especially the adhesive filled shrink is a good addition.

[blt2ski]

Reading Les's article. He mentions using marine wire vs auto wire. This is something I might recommend too. Marine wire vs auto, both are copper. BUT< the marine wire is tinned over copper. So it will not degrade as fast etc, as non tin coated wire.
Another to note, some manufactures sell tin coated marine wire, that is the same diam as non coated, along with the same gauge rating/sizing. One that I know of, uses a slightly larger diam for a given gauge, that way you get the same amount of copper as a non coated! So you have the same amount of amps etc that can get thru the wire. assuming non is 14 gauge, the tin coated should be approx a 12 gauge actual size as compared to a 14 non. This will cost you more per foot. At the end of the day, this extra cost could be worth it.
As far as soldering vs crimping........I've personally seen some say soldering is better, other crimping. If you do not crimp correctly, you have an issue with no or a lower contact connection, so loss of conductivity, amps etc. Then again, if one does not know how to solder, like myself......crimping is probably a better/best option. Along with if you need a water tight fitting, put a heated shrink wrap equal over the crimp fitting, and you have a water tight fit. Assuming you do this correctly too! LOL, assuming we are ALL human here, and as Ben says, Mr Murphy can show up at any time or place or you name it.....shift happens!
At the end of the day tho, we all want brakes that will work on our trailers. No matter what they are for, be it an RV, Boat, Equipment, job shack trailer, office....... Along with having them meet the on the road field testing LEO's can put you through if they feel you might have a non working brake system. Their are a few more items than just the one I mentioned, and jimlim also mentioned. Like your battery for the brakes if you have a complete disconnect....if tested, needs at least 11.6-11.8V. So if you use a house battery, were using it dry the night before, and take off, get pulled over really quick, you battery bank may not be charged enough for the field test with a volt meter.....something to think about if you do this.

marty

[camperforlife]

OP here, thanks for all the input. I may seriously consider doing a rewire this spring. Already got rid of the scotchlocks and considered soldering the joints. The current wiring is inside the closed belly and quite the chore to inspect but it has been done.

[BarneyS]

Thanks for posting that Ben and for saving those pictures and Les's article. I had a whole bunch of mine lost when Photobucket pulled their dirty trick. I have also saved those pictures you just posted on my computer for future use. Thanks again and have a very Happy New Year! 🙂

P.S. I miss him a lot also. He is very happy riding around on his Gold Wing now.
Barney

[BenK]

Consider rewiring your trailer braking system. I've done that for all of the church buddies who loan me their trailers, and rebuilt their brakes with new components & shoes

Best write up and lost are the many photobucket hosted photo's...saved most of them and re-posting them after saving them

I rewired my trailer brakes , by LAdams
Really miss him...

LAdams wrote:
Posted: 07/16/07 06:30pm

I tow a large heavy trailer (about 34' overall and #9400 loaded)... I haven't really been satisfied with it's braking ability from the day I received it, so I started going over things a few weeks ago...

In addition to finding numerous questionable connections, I found that the main brake lead wire on the TT was only 14 Gauge and the crossover wires that runs across the axles was even less than that maybe 16 gauge, perhaps less...

After adjusting the brakes and readjusting my Jordan controller, things were better but still not as good as I wanted things to be... During my brake adjusting procedure I found that the street side rear brake magnet wire was worn through after the retaining clips had fallen off the drag link allowing the wire to rub against the inner hub and ultimately wearing it through... I repaired this and continued on...

I also found that when they (Skyline) assembled the TT, they used Scotchlok connectors to tap the main brake wire for all the brakes... Scotchlok's are great for certain applications but NOT high current brake applications... In general, it was a VERY poor wiring job (not the first I have found on this TT!!) I rewired the existing brake circuit before our recent trip to Florida and took the TT for a test ride... Several very firm brake applications of truck and trailer revealed much better braking performance but I was still not satisfied...

I had recently read the article on the Hensley web site that dealt with Hensley rewiring a TT for testing with their new brake controller... The article made sense to me particularly with regard to the larger diameter wire... If you haven't read it yet, I suggest you do - it is quite informative...

I went on the Internet and purchased some 10 gauge wire from a Marine Supply Company - it's nice and flexible and wasn't real costly... I then proceeded to rewire the trailer last Saturday with the 10 gauge wire and soldering ALL connections from the trailer plug junction box all the way back to each individual brake magnet... I used heat shrink tubing on all connections at the brakes and electrical tape for the junctions of the 10 gauge wire...

The original trailer brake wiring path was down the street side of the trailer frame and then running across the axles to the other set of brakes... When Hensley rewired theirs, they ran down the center of the TT and branched equally to each brake assembly from the center main feed... While in theory, the slightly longer length of wire from one side to another shouldn't make any difference, I decided to wire the TT the way they did it if nothing else , for symmetry...

Below are pictures of the wire used versus the wire I removed... I haven't had a chance to check brake performance yet but I suspect it will be better than before... Just how much better remains to be seen and I'll report back on that after I test it in 2 weeks when I'm out at the local CG again...

I'll take a few more pictures of the installation and post them after the driveway drys out a bit... It just rained here and it's a bit damp to be crawling under the TT taking pictures...


















Les

2000 Ford F-250SD, XLT, 4X4 Off Road, SuperCab
w/ 6.8L (415 C.I.) V-10/3:73LS/4R100
Banks Power Pack w/Trans Command & OttoMind
Sold Trailer - not RV'ing at this point in time

[ktmrfs]

JIMNLIN wrote:
I've owned three 5th wheel trailers and non of them would slide a tire when I got them home. I owned and put over a dozen equipment/enclosed trailers in commercial service and they also wouldn't slide a tire when I got them home.

On everyone I would R&R why they weren't working. As Marty says trailers in service are required to lock and hold.

The first thing I did with any trailer is get rid of all crimp type connectors especially clam shell type. I solder all connections. In some cases I go with a larger wire. After all that is done I do a amp check at each brake. Checking for 12v may not get the best performance as just a couple of strands from a cut/chaffed wire can get you 12v.

After all the R&R is done all my trailers brakes will slide the tires at any speed if I crank the gain up enough.

yes, those scotchlock connectors are IMHO a poor connector. too often they are installed incorrectly, the wrong size used, used to connect two incompatible wire sizes etc. and even when done completely properly not a real reliable connection, especially when exposed to moisture.

When I redid my trailer brake wiring I also eliminated all of them. either a solder connection or a good wire nut.

[JIMNLIN]

I've owned three 5th wheel trailers and non of them would slide a tire when I got them home. I owned and put over a dozen equipment/enclosed trailers in commercial service and they also wouldn't slide a tire when I got them home.

On everyone I would R&R why they weren't working. As Marty says trailers in service are required to lock and hold.

The first thing I did with any trailer is get rid of all crimp type connectors especially clam shell type. I solder all connections. In some cases I go with a larger wire. After all that is done I do a amp check at each brake. Checking for 12v may not get the best performance as just a couple of strands from a cut/chaffed wire can get you 12v.

After all the R&R is done all my trailers brakes will slide the tires at any speed if I crank the gain up enough.

[ktmrfs]

blt2ski wrote:
At least here in Washington ST, you need the brakes to be locked up if you move manual lock to full on. Then try to pull forward, your trailer brakes should be locked and holding you in place on a level hard surface. That is one of the field tests you.have to pass if an LEO pulls you over, a d checks to verify your brakes function. IF one or more wheels do.not lock up, you have a failed braking system.
I would suggest anyone reading this, find out what your state, or ones you travel thru require your trailer to do to have a legal setup.
Locking the brakes/wheels while moving is not required. BUT, trailer brakes manually activated need to stop, slow down the whole rig.

OP imho does not have an issue from what I read, generally speaking....Then again.

Marty

while my trailers (current and past) wouldn't lock the wheels on dry pavement while moving, if the controller was on full force and I was stopped, moving forward depending on the tow vehicle was either not possible or would leave the wheels locked.

Many of the guides for setting the trailer brake setting is to drive at 5-10 mph on a gravel surface and adust the controller to just lock the wheels on gravel. That's how I've set mine in the past and that seems to work fine, even in the few cases I've needed to make a high speed panic stop. you do NOT want the trailer brakes to lock up in a panic stop. worse effect than having the rear wheels on the TV to lock up in a panic stop!


On wet or gravel surfaces I adjust the trailer brake controller down.

The washington requirement seems to be a reasonable check on trailer brake functionality.

[blt2ski]

At least here in Washington ST, you need the brakes to be locked up if you move manual lock to full on. Then try to pull forward, your trailer brakes should be locked and holding you in place on a level hard surface. That is one of the field tests you.have to pass if an LEO pulls you over, a d checks to verify your brakes function. IF one or more wheels do.not lock up, you have a failed braking system.
I would suggest anyone reading this, find out what your state, or ones you travel thru require your trailer to do to have a legal setup.
Locking the brakes/wheels while moving is not required. BUT, trailer brakes manually activated need to stop, slow down the whole rig.

OP imho does not have an issue from what I read, generally speaking....Then again.

Marty

[time2roll]

Get out your DC clamp-on ammeter and check that you are getting 3 amps at each wheel while your buddy manually applies the controller.

Still if braking seems fine all is probably normal.

Otherwise the ultimate solution is disk brakes.

[ktmrfs]

DutchmenSport wrote:
I had 3 different travel trailers and none of them would actually "lock up" the brakes. I had 3 different tow vehicles, 3 different brake controllers, and none of them would lock up the trailer. I just kept the setting as high as I could.

Even my last TT, my Outback with the integrated brake controller on my current truck, would not lock up. But it braked just fine, even in a panic stop.

Then I got my current 5er last October and I had my brake controller (integrated) set for the Outback I just traded. I hit the brake peddle the firs time and almost got slung through the windshield, had it not been for the seat belt. I tried the manual brake on the trailer and sure enough, the brakes locked up tight. I had to reduce the gain on the brake controller from 10 to about 3.5 in order to keep from slamming my nose into the steering wheel.

It was then, I realized it was just the nature of the travel trailers with combinations of 3 different trailers, 3 different trucks, and 3 different brake controllers, and they all acted the same, until I got the 5er.

my outback 295RE, same as dutchman also would no lock up the brakes regardless of controller setting. Neither would my 14ft cargo trailer. On the outback I replaced the trailer brake wiring with 12ga wiring star formation so each brake wire only needed to supply the current for that brake. the wiring normally daisy chains to all the brakes, and is normally 14 or 16 ga wiring. In a longer trailer the resistance is high enough compared to the electric brake magnet resistance that the brakes become current limited and often won't see the max current they are designed for and hence no ability to get enough brake force to lock the wheels.

Once I completed the job on the outback a setting of 6 or 7 on the integrated controller will lock the brakes. normally I have it set for 5.

Also, you do not want to set an integrated controller high enough to allow the trailer brakes to lock.

Now once you have a trailer with 5,000lb or up axles you also often go from a 10" to 12" brake drum and do get better braking even with the undersized wires.

[goducks10]

The brakes on my 5er won't lock up using my 18 Ram OEM brake controller. They wouldn't lock up with my 12 Ram OEm TBC either. They would lock up when I swapped out the 12 Ram TBC for a Tekonsha P3. Very easy to lock up with it. Had a previous Tt that the brakes would lock up using my 2010 F150 OEM TBC. Towing that same TT with my 12 Ram the brakes would not lock up.
It could be the brake controller on you truck. Both the TT and my current 5er have the brakes adjusted properly.

[drsteve]

Lynnmor wrote:
It may be the undersized wires commonly used on trailers to save a dime.

Yep, and those wires get smaller every model year, it seems. One of my RV projects for spring is rewiring the brakes on my Coachmen with #10 and getting rid of the Scotchlok connectors.