Why are there so few Fr.E.D.?

[GWolfe]

Been looking at Class As lately, more out of curiosity than anything. Why don't manufacturers offer more diesels in the front engine chassis? Seems like it would be a win/win other than price but at the price the manufacturers ask for some of these another $10k would be a drop in the hat.

I don't know much about the chassis suppliers but I'm guessing the chassis aren't built by Ford/GM/ or Ram and maybe that has something to do with it.

Anyway just my winter wonderin going on, thanks.

[MrWizard]

All gassers have a dog house that intrudes into the front space between seats

the diesel is most likely going to be taller and intrude even more

that power stroke diesel is physically larger than the compact v10
which is only 413 CuIn displacement

[Bruce_Brown]

^^^ I can understand that. What I'm thinking is how much more $$$ would it be to simply drop in a Power Stroke diesel in place of the V10? We're not looking for an entirely new chassis or motorhome, just a new power plant.
On the Ecoboost discussion, my F150 has the little 2.7EB, I love it. I wonder when/if Ford will ever EB a V8 for Super Duty duty. I'd take a look at that. The current crop of Ecoboosts sure are impressive.

[nightshift]

I think the Monaco Vesta was one of the most beautiful FREDs built. I read an article years ago that claimed Monaco lost millions after this clean sheet design didn't sell very well. They were going after affluent younger couples that wanted diesel quality in a smaller package.
The strategy failed. Many people saw the high price tag matched bigger - but lesser quality - units.

[Mile_High]

Groover wrote:

Mile High wrote:

DrewE wrote:
The main chassis supplier for gas class A motorhomes is Ford, and they don't offer a diesel version.

I rather doubt there would be as much of a performance difference between the gas and the diesel version if they did offer one as some here would assume. It's unlikely that the diesel would be a lot more powerful, though it would presumably run at a lower RPM (and, of course, have a higher torque at that RPM to get the same power) and so sound different. Being turbocharged, it would also not lose power at altitude to anywhere near the degree that the normally aspirated gas engines do. On the other hand, the diesel would likely weigh more.

In my opinion, the main advantages of rear engine diesel motorhomes have little if anything to do with the diesel part and a great deal more to do with the rear engine (and air suspension/brake) parts. One might equally well ask why rear engine gas motorhomes are so rare.

You must be kidding. I used to be a skeptic of diesel even back when buying pickups to pull. My daughter put me in powerstroke 7.3 and it was a whole new world. You just can't compare the advantages to the low end torque and turbo until you put yourself behind the wheel and tow. The new powerstrokes have more HP than my 8.9 DP, nearly as much torque! They are rockets!

To your point my F150 EcoBoost has 20% more rated hp than my DP (365 vs 300) and I am not nearly as aware of how hard it is working than I was with either my 460 or V10. Between the extra power and weight savings I would love to try an EcoBoost with the 10 speed transmission in place of my diesel just to see what it would do but I know that I will never have that opportunity.

That ecoboost is very impressive. I rented an Expedition with one and was quite shocked.

[Groover]

Mile High wrote:

DrewE wrote:
The main chassis supplier for gas class A motorhomes is Ford, and they don't offer a diesel version.

I rather doubt there would be as much of a performance difference between the gas and the diesel version if they did offer one as some here would assume. It's unlikely that the diesel would be a lot more powerful, though it would presumably run at a lower RPM (and, of course, have a higher torque at that RPM to get the same power) and so sound different. Being turbocharged, it would also not lose power at altitude to anywhere near the degree that the normally aspirated gas engines do. On the other hand, the diesel would likely weigh more.

In my opinion, the main advantages of rear engine diesel motorhomes have little if anything to do with the diesel part and a great deal more to do with the rear engine (and air suspension/brake) parts. One might equally well ask why rear engine gas motorhomes are so rare.

You must be kidding. I used to be a skeptic of diesel even back when buying pickups to pull. My daughter put me in powerstroke 7.3 and it was a whole new world. You just can't compare the advantages to the low end torque and turbo until you put yourself behind the wheel and tow. The new powerstrokes have more HP than my 8.9 DP, nearly as much torque! They are rockets!

To your point my F150 EcoBoost has 20% more rated hp than my DP (365 vs 300) and I am not nearly as aware of how hard it is working than I was with either my 460 or V10. Between the extra power and weight savings I would love to try an EcoBoost with the 10 speed transmission in place of my diesel just to see what it would do but I know that I will never have that opportunity.

[Mile_High]

DrewE wrote:
The main chassis supplier for gas class A motorhomes is Ford, and they don't offer a diesel version.

I rather doubt there would be as much of a performance difference between the gas and the diesel version if they did offer one as some here would assume. It's unlikely that the diesel would be a lot more powerful, though it would presumably run at a lower RPM (and, of course, have a higher torque at that RPM to get the same power) and so sound different. Being turbocharged, it would also not lose power at altitude to anywhere near the degree that the normally aspirated gas engines do. On the other hand, the diesel would likely weigh more.

In my opinion, the main advantages of rear engine diesel motorhomes have little if anything to do with the diesel part and a great deal more to do with the rear engine (and air suspension/brake) parts. One might equally well ask why rear engine gas motorhomes are so rare.

You must be kidding. I used to be a skeptic of diesel even back when buying pickups to pull. My daughter put me in powerstroke 7.3 and it was a whole new world. You just can't compare the advantages to the low end torque and turbo until you put yourself behind the wheel and tow. The new powerstrokes have more HP than my 8.9 DP, nearly as much torque! They are rockets!

[Bruce_Brown]

DrewE wrote:
The main chassis supplier for gas class A motorhomes is Ford, and they don't offer a diesel version.

I rather doubt there would be as much of a performance difference between the gas and the diesel version if they did offer one as some here would assume. It's unlikely that the diesel would be a lot more powerful, though it would presumably run at a lower RPM (and, of course, have a higher torque at that RPM to get the same power) and so sound different. Being turbocharged, it would also not lose power at altitude to anywhere near the degree that the normally aspirated gas engines do. On the other hand, the diesel would likely weigh more.

In my opinion, the main advantages of rear engine diesel motorhomes have little if anything to do with the diesel part and a great deal more to do with the rear engine (and air suspension/brake) parts. One might equally well ask why rear engine gas motorhomes are so rare.

On the bold, I could not disagree more. Go hook up a 10,000 lb trailer to a gas Super Duty and take it for a test drive. Now hook up that same trailer to a Super Duty diesel do another test ride. Get back to us on if you still think there wouldn't be much of a performance gain.

I can save you the trouble if you'd like. I always had gas trucks. One day my gasser was in the shop so the gave me a diesel as a loaner. Shortly thereafter I owned my first diesel truck. That was 3 trucks ago, I'm still buying diesels.

I'm with the OP on this one, I have often wondered why Ford wouldn't drop the Power Stroke in a MH chassis. I honestly think a lot of people are a bit scared/shy about owning a diesel.

[Groover]

One of the main reasons that I went with a DP was less rear overhang compared with the gas coaches. I would imagine that if you put even more weight on the front axle with a front diesel you could end up with the rear axle around the middle of the coach. I do like not hearing the engine at all during normal driving but I do hear the fan when it goes into high speed on hills. It is not bad but I feel that if it was 30 feet closer it would be much worse. The long driveshaft and exhaust system would probably interfere with basement storage a lot. There are drawbacks too but that is not what the op asked about. On the other hand, I would be interested in a rear gasser if that is available when I make my next purchase.

[roam1]

If I redline my ford v10 up a hill it's noisy, if I back it off a gear or two up hill it's not very noisy. Since I'm not always going up hill and not in a hurry.....it's not to noisy.

[Hikerdogs]

janstey58 wrote:

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Even the newer gas powered RV's are quieter than they were a few years ago.

Maybe you haven't driven a new Ford gasser with V10 up a hill, they are **** noisy!!

The noise that gets into the passenger compartment is a function of how the body builder insulates the engine compartment. We're on our 2nd V10 powered motorhome. The first one was a 2001 Winnebago Adventurer. There was some engine noise, but not nearly as bad as a diesel engine sitting next to you.

Our current one is a 2013 Winnebago Adventurer. This one is much quieter. There is no problem carrying on a conversation in a normal tone of voice, or listening to the radio. I believe you would have to have at least double the insulation to reduce the noise from a diesel to the same level.

[valhalla360]

Mile High wrote:
The manufacturers don't give a rats about noise. It's the availability of the chassis that dictates the outcome.

X2 Tooling around the block on level ground during the sales process doesn't expose any noise issues. By the time you find any noise issues, it's a done deal.

Rear engine chassis are mostly based on tour buses which only come in diesel flavor. They also tend to be bigger and heavier with higher tow ratings, favoring diesel. Plus if you are dropping a quarter to a half mil, you want to be able to brag about the diesel.

Front engine tend to be low to mid range units where cost is more of a consideration ($10k on a $300k unit is a 3.3% up charge. $10k on a $100k unit is a 10% upcharge) and most chassis are based on gas engines. The house is also built around the gas engine specs and dimensions. if they have to put in a diesel, it has to fit within the same envelope since with Class A, the RV manufacturer builds the doghouse. Plus modern gas engines are both powerful and long lived, so it's a tough sell for not a lot of gain.

This isn't like pickups where they sell by the tens of thousands and if they can sell even 10% with diesel, they are selling many thousands per year.

[Dale_Traveling]

MrWizard wrote:
2010 Thor Serrano is a F.R.E.D.

I think they made it for several more years

Forgot about that one and I suspect a few others which is why I used "probably". Workhorse chassis with a MaxxForce engine and priced a bit higher than the Allegro Bay. Again basically a gas chassis with a diesel engine up front and the higher price over a comparable gas coach. The Palazzo displaced it in the Thor model line up.

[MrWizard]

2010 Thor Serrano is a F.R.E.D.

i think they made it for several more years

[Dale_Traveling]

Tiffin was probably one of the last of the FRED producers. Production of the Allegro Bay ended n 2010 when the Allegro Red came out. Built the Bay on the Freightliner MC chassis with a 6.7 ISB mated to an Allison 2350. Shocks/leaf springs for a suspension along with hydraulic brakes. Other than the power train not much different in general than the Ford.

The chassis did have a higher weight capacity and better fuel economy but it wasn't enough to entice potential buys past the increased cost. A 2010 Allegro 38TGB listed price was around $170,000. Same floor plan on a Ford chassis was $150,000. Economic factors at the time didn't help. The Red listed at around $180,000 at the time and was a full up DP chassis so might as well get the real thing. Many builders followed suit with the lower cost, call it "entry level", DP and the rest is history.