Open Roads Forum

Print  |  Close

Topic: When did DEF become required ?

Posted By: viajante on 04/23/14 09:20pm

Thinking of upgrading to a DP. I want to avoid having to deal with DEF. What year models did it become a requirement ?






Posted By: Old-Biscuit on 04/23/14 09:34pm

IIRC Jan. 2010


Is it time for your medication or mine?


2007 DODGE 3500 QC SRW 5.9L CTD In-Bed 'quiet gen'
2007 HitchHiker II 32.5 UKTG 2000W Xantex Inverter
US NAVY------USS Decatur DDG31


Posted By: Mr.Mark on 04/23/14 09:40pm

Mr. Dave, we bought the first year coach with the particulate filter on the 2007 chassis (2008 coach). We have had zero problems with it. DEF came out in 2010 if I'm not mistaken and our new coach will have it. I'm not concerned. The word on the street is the DEF units get a little better fuel mileage.

We have no smoke come out on heavy hill climbs. The regeneration cycle happens once about every 10,000 miles. There is a light on the dash to tell me the process is starting/happening.

If you want a totally emission-free diesel vehicle, go 2006 or earlier. It's funny, I remember when people were going crazy when the catalytic converters came out in 1975..... and fully implemented in '79-'80. Same happened with shoulder seat belts with the buzzers.

Go with the environmentally friendly units. Save a tree. LOL! (just kidding). Buy and drive what you like, this is America.

A side note: Before catalytic converters, the Los Angeles smog was horrendous. You couldn't see houses off the I-10 Freeway, especially, in San Bernardino, CA. There is still some smog but 95% better. Low emission vehicles are important for our health.
MM.

* This post was edited 04/23/14 09:50pm by Mr.Mark *


Mr.Mark
2021.5 Pleasure Way Plateau FL Class-B on the Sprinter Chassis
2018 Mini Cooper Hardtop Coupe, 2 dr., 6-speed manual
(SOLD) 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach, 45 ft, 500 hp Volvo
(SOLD) 2008 Monaco Dynasty, 42 ft, 425 hp Cummins


Posted By: pugslyyy on 04/23/14 10:01pm

2006/2007 is the last model years for non-ULSD and non-DPF. The motors had to be made in 2006, but for some models (like my Fuso) they made all the 2007 model year motors in 2006. If you plan on going to Mexico or points further south, being able to take the non-ULSD becomes important.






Posted By: naturist on 04/24/14 06:40am

Other than the ULSD issue in Mexico, the newer motors have some advantages. Dealing with DEF isn't really a big deal. Every so often you pour some in. It's fairly cheap, both in cost to purchase and in cost per mile. Heck, you already do that with windshield washer fluid.






Posted By: mpierce on 04/24/14 06:43am

I do not believe DEF was ever required. But, the engines had to meet the standards, and DEF is one of the ways it was done.


Posted By: BurbMan on 04/24/14 06:58am

Just don't pour DEF in the fuel tank by accident like this guy did.


2015 Ram 3500 SRW 4x4 Laramie Crew Cab Long Box, Cummins diesel
2002 Lance 811 Slide-In Camper
SOLD: 2008 Terry 34' TT
SOLD: 2001 K2500LT 8.1L Suburban

Lance 811 Renovation Story!
Project Complete!
Maiden Voyage!



Posted By: WayneLee on 04/24/14 07:37am

I was not in the market for my DP in 2007 until I went to an FMCA rally and attended a forum by the diesel manufacturers - Cummins, Detroit and Cat. As they said, at that time, they could not tell the long term effects of the new pollution-reduction requirements. So I took the plunge and bought my DP in May of 2007, but it had a 2006 Cummins engine. 2007 was the particulate filter requirements and 2010 came stricter requirements that were met by using DEF.


Wayne Lee
Out West Somewhere


2016 Forest River Sunseeker 3050DS Class C | Hummer H3 dinghy


Posted By: Mr.Mark on 04/24/14 09:21am

BurbMan wrote:

Just don't pour DEF in the fuel tank by accident like this guy did.


I just read all 10 pages of that thread (20 posts per page) and I will definitely be extra careful while putting DEF into the correct filler tube on our new coach. I know on the Prevost, they have moved the diesel and DEF fillers to the same opening so that both can be filled at the truck island. The DEF filler is just on the driver's side whereas the diesel filler is on both sides.

Mistakes can happen and it is apparently very expensive if you start the engine with DEF in the wrong tank. If not started (realizing a mistake was made), just removing the fuel, having the tank cleaned and refill with diesel will not damage the engine.

I have never noticed if the Diesel and DEF nozzles are different sizes to help against a brain burp. I know that the Diesel handles are green and the DEF's are blue.

MM.


Posted By: BurbMan on 04/24/14 10:28am

Yes, but having a Prevost towed and the fuel tank drained, dropped, and cleaned, is not going to be cheap either....


Posted By: Mr.Mark on 04/24/14 11:07am

BurbMan wrote:

Yes, but having a Prevost towed and the fuel tank drained, dropped, and cleaned, is not going to be cheap either....


Agreed, I hope I never have to find out. But after reading that thread, whether you put gas in a diesel or diesel in a gas unit, mistakes can happen. Since DEF is not required at every fill-up, I think that would make it easier to be extra careful (for me).

But, we don't have a choice when buying new, it's going to have DEF. And, I don't have a problem with the manufacturers making these units run clean as possible, SMOG is not a pretty thing.

Mark


Posted By: msmith1199 on 04/24/14 11:54am

Mr.Mark wrote:

Mr. Dave, we bought the first year coach with the particulate filter on the 2007 chassis (2008 coach). We have had zero problems with it. DEF came out in 2010 if I'm not mistaken and our new coach will have it. I'm not concerned. The word on the street is the DEF units get a little better fuel mileage.

We have no smoke come out on heavy hill climbs. The regeneration cycle happens once about every 10,000 miles. There is a light on the dash to tell me the process is starting/happening.

If you want a totally emission-free diesel vehicle, go 2006 or earlier. It's funny, I remember when people were going crazy when the catalytic converters came out in 1975..... and fully implemented in '79-'80. Same happened with shoulder seat belts with the buzzers.

Go with the environmentally friendly units. Save a tree. LOL! (just kidding). Buy and drive what you like, this is America.

A side note: Before catalytic converters, the Los Angeles smog was horrendous. You couldn't see houses off the I-10 Freeway, especially, in San Bernardino, CA. There is still some smog but 95% better. Low emission vehicles are important for our health.
MM.


Yes, I remember going into the gray haze in Los Angeles that was always present down there. However, reduced car emissions was only part of that. Much of that air was cleaned up by closing down almost all manufacturing and sending those jobs to other Countries who now have the dirty air.


2021 Nexus Viper 27V. Class B+
2019 Ford Ranger 4x4



Posted By: wa8yxm on 04/24/14 02:11pm

Mr.Mark wrote:

It's funny, I remember when people were going crazy when the catalytic converters came out in 1975..... and fully implemented in '79-'80. Same happened with shoulder seat belts with the buzzers.


Do not know about Cats.. Never researched them to see how much good they do.

Seat belts I do know about.. They not only save lives but in some cases prevent accidents in the first place.. I have sent many troopers to many accidents and in many of them seat belts would have helped and in at least one prevented it completely, 2 people died and a 3rd needed clean underwear in that one (I got to talk to #3, he was in the vehicle BEHIND the two who died).

AIR bags, however, CAUSE INJURY.


Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times



Posted By: 2oldman on 04/24/14 02:21pm

wa8yxm wrote:

Do not know about Cats.. Never researched them to see how much good they do.
I sure know when I'm driving behind an old vehicle without it.


Posted By: Mr.Mark on 04/24/14 02:59pm

2oldman wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:

Do not know about Cats.. Never researched them to see how much good they do.
I sure know when I'm driving behind an old vehicle without it.


I have a 1964 car with no CAT and no seatbelts that I have owned for 16 yrs..... the good ole days. The automatic windows work without the key and you can change the gears (no column lock).

And, let me say, I can't leave that car running in the garage for 5 seconds without smelling the effects of no CAT (6.25 liter V-8).

MM.

* This post was edited 04/24/14 03:08pm by Mr.Mark *


Posted By: Deano56 on 04/24/14 03:37pm

I've heard many independent truck drivers that come to our plant to load up say, the extra cost in DEF hurts their pocket book, but they are doing tens of thousands of mile per year. The DEF does reduce emissions but, I think motorhomes should have been excluded from the mandates, due to them not being the cause of our pollution problems.


Posted By: wolfe10 on 04/24/14 04:06pm

I would be quite surprised if the cost of DEF (particularly if purchased at the pump) would not be more than off-set by the better fuel mileage.

Same as gasoline cars when the catalytic converter came out in 1975.

The DPF and DEF allow the engine to be run dirtier/more power and let the equipment downstream clean it up.


Brett Wolfe
Ex: 2003 Alpine 38'FDDS
Ex: 1997 Safari 35'
Ex: 1993 Foretravel U240

Diesel RV Club:http://www.dieselrvclub.org/


Posted By: Ivylog on 04/24/14 05:11pm

Most engine built after December 31 2009 require DEF BUT some manufactures bought extra 2009 engines so even a 2011 MH might have a 09 engine.


This post is my opinion (free advice). It is not intended to influence anyone's judgment nor do I advocate anyone do what I propose.
Sold 04 Dynasty to our son after 14 great years.
Upgraded with a 08 HR Navigator 45’...



Posted By: mdamerell on 04/24/14 05:28pm

DEF at the pump is about $2.80 a gallon which is cheaper than buying the 2.5 gal jug at Auto Zone for $14.99.

The DEF pump nozzle has a built in shut off that will only open when it's inserted into the neck of the DEF tank to try and prevent people from pouring DEF in the fuel tank. There is no such protection when pouring from the jug.

My semi runs about 461 miles a day and I add about 5-6 gallons every 2-3 days (when it gets to 1/2 tank, 13 gal tank) So we use about 1 gal of DEF per 275 miles. The Cat, Detroit and Cummins are about the same consumption rate.


2012 Sundance 3100RB w/Reese Goose Box
2004 Ford F350 6.0 L PSD, CC, DRW, long bed, B&W drop ball hitch, Firestone Ride-rite air bags.



Posted By: AikenRacer on 04/24/14 06:36pm

I kind of had the same concerns. But after buying our new mh and using DEF, it isn't a big deal at all. Like earlier posted. It is fairly cheap and goes a long way. Really no problem for me at all.


2012 Tuscany 42RQ tag
2005 Silverado 2500 w/ piggy back golf cart


Posted By: Deano56 on 04/24/14 07:43pm

wolfe10 wrote:

I would be quite surprised if the cost of DEF (particularly if purchased at the pump) would not be more than off-set by the better fuel mileage.

Same as gasoline cars when the catalytic converter came out in 1975.

The DPF and DEF allow the engine to be run dirtier/more power and let the equipment downstream clean it up.
how much increase is there?I would think the independent drivers would know their cost since they are paying for both fuel and def, that's what they tell me


Posted By: mdamerell on 04/24/14 08:47pm

When I started to drive semi in 1995 I would get 6.5 mpg on average with a cab over truck. When Kenworth introduced the T600 they got around 8 mpg and everyone thought that was great. A classic Peterbilt 379 or Kenworth W900 would average 4-5 mpg.

Since then the EPA has messed up the diesel engine and after aerodynamics and now ULSD we are back to fleet average of 6.5 mpg and diesel costs $4 a gallon not $1 a gallon.

Volvo claims a savings of around $3000 a year due to an 8% increase in fuel economy. I've not seen it and we use more DEF than the engineers claimed we would. I think it's a net zero situation. We still have a couple of pre EPA engine trucks left in our fleet 750,000 plus miles and the engines run better than most of the new ones. Less head aches but the new ones sure ride better.

The DEF regen units adds over $5,000 to the initial cost of the truck not to mention the repair bills.

Other than LA being able to breath I'm not sure it is worth the cost for the rest of the country.


Posted By: Mr.Mark on 04/27/14 03:12pm

mdamerell, the fresh air is for everybody. Most large cities across the country have some type of smog.

Safe travels,
MM.


Posted By: Tntman on 05/04/14 09:57pm

According to what I have read, engine manufacturers say you get better fuel mileage due to the increased horsepower and torque, if you want to believe it. The problem I see is the cost to replace the system. On a 2007 with the regen system, the cost according to a factory rep is about $9,000. I do not know the cost to replace a DEF system.
Those are some of the reasons I purchased in 2003 that has a 2002 chassis with NO pollution required equipment. In 2003 the EPA required motorhome chassis manufacturers to add a cat converter and an EGR valve.
I get 8.5 to 9 miles per gallon towing a 6000 pound Hummer. I AM REALLY HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!


ALL WHO WANDER ARE NOT LOST,
Mike, Jill and our dog Goshe
Our Booger dog is with us in a custom urn, miss ya Boogs
2003 Tiffin Phaeton, Roadmaster tow products, 2016 Jeep Cherokee
Good Sam, SKP, FMCA F292654


Posted By: moisheh on 05/05/14 04:40am

The new FL Cascadia Revolution tractors can get over 8 MPG. Big fleets say they are getting better mileage. However the reliability of the new systems is questionable.

Moisheh


Print  |  Close