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RE: Wiring 4 awg charging wire to upgrade 8 awg factory wire.
My Redarc 50amp just senses the voltage increase from the alternator and turns on, no trigger wire.Nice to have that capability built-in. I don't understand why all dc to dc charger manufacturers don't include the equivalent of a Battery Isolator (BI) or Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) with their units. It's a basic requirement for operating a dc to dc charger in the vast majority of installations.
The 50a Redarc dc to dc charger is a nice unit, built like a tank. See a number of off-roaders using them.
One big caveat though, they cost $500+. One could potentially purchase & stack 4, 40a Renogy dc to dc chargers for 160a of output for $519. Of course, this would require a dedicated, high capacity alternator to provide the necessary current. I've been told Renogy doesn't recommend stacking (connecting in parallel), but I've stacked 2 of them with no issues.
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otrfun
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02/05/23 08:24am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
. . . I would argue there is more potential for something to go wring in a battle born with over 100 cells soldered in as aposed to a prismatic type with only 8 battery conections, but it will be easier to detect on the prismatic . . .I would argue there is less potential.
The 100ah Battleborn (BB) battery cost more for a very good reason---better redundancy. BB uses 100+ cylindrical cells spot-welded in a parallel/series configuration (vs. series connected prismatic cells). Configured this way, a few cells can loose capacity or become unbalanced and have very little effect on the battery's overall output.
99% of the 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon, etc., use prismatic cells. Typically 4 in series. If *any* of these 4 cells loose capacity or become unbalanced it directly and immediately degrades the overall output of the battery---potentially to the point the battery becomes almost unusable, all because of one cell.
BB could have easily chosen to use less expensive prismatic cells, but they didn't in order to provide a more stable, robust battery.
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otrfun
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02/04/23 11:14am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Honda generator to truck camper
P.S. deltabravo, is it possible you were experiencing more of an issue with your generator lacking enough inrush current to start your a/c compressor, rather than an issue with the PI EMS?? Sounds to me like your EMS was simply doing its job. The voltage dropped too low when your generator was unable to provide enough inrush current to start the a/c compressor, so the EMS simply cut-off power??Two things were at play:
1. The E2 error, which I could overcome be flipping the switch on the EMS remote, which bypass that error.
3. The other issue was the lack of ability of the generator to provide enough surge power to get the A/C fan and compressor started. When that happened, the voltage would sag and the EMS would kick off the power.
When I finally decided to jettison the EMS, the generator started the A/C just fine.
If I would have had a Micro Air Easy Start back then, it would have likely allowed the A/C to start from the generator with the EMS installed.
I so have a Micro Air Easy Start on my AF 992 truck camper's A/C.What you're describing appears to be the same scenario posed in my questions.
Flipping the switch on the EMS remote to the off position does prevent the E2 error; however, it accomplishes this by turning off *all* protection.
Interesting enough, even with all protection turned off, the EMS circuitry itself will shutdown (opening the EMS relay, shutting off power to the RV) if voltage drops much below 95-100vac. This is not the low-voltage protection being activated, it's the entire EMS shutting down from lack of power. I would guess this is probably what occurred in your situation.
When you removed the EMS, it allowed the voltage to drop extremely low without interruption while the a/c compressor started. It says a lot about your Honda 2000, that even with this huge voltage drop, it was still able to provide enough inrush current to start the a/c compressor.
Yup, I agree, a Micro Air Easy Start would have prevented both the voltage drop and the resultant low-voltage cut-off you experienced with the EMS.
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otrfun
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02/03/23 06:36pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
For the sake of discussion, I will say this: *IF* this $300 (US) 2000 watt Renogy RNG-INVT-2000-12V-P2-US inverter is capable of 4000w for 5 sec, it would make it one of the best performing high-frequency 2000w inverters on the market, regardless of price.
Unfortunately, this is a huge if. As they say, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.X2 - Maybe it means 5 seconds before the blue smoke appears??
3 tonsCould be, but I hope not--lol! From a bang-for-a-buck, consumer point-of-view, it would be awesome if the Renogy could produce 4000w for 5 sec. Who wouldn't want that kind of performance for $300?! Once/if word got out, it would be a hands-down best seller. Unfortunately, until proven otherwise, I'm just going to believe Renogy's official literature which says it produces 4000w of peak power. A spec that's on par with the vast majority of budget, 2000w high-frequency inverters.
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otrfun
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02/03/23 11:25am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
. . . I just looked at this Xantrex: https://www.donrowe.com/Xantrex-806-1220-PROwatt-SW-2000-p/806-1220.htm
More expensive, for sure but the specs say:
1800 watts continuous power output
2000 watts for 5 minutes
3000 watts surge (peak power)
Pure sine wave output (< 5% THD )
5 minutes @ 2000 watts? Am I reading that right - that's differerent from peak power, I assume? I'm thinking that would easily run my MWLol!! We used to own the Xantrex ProWatt SW2000. The above specs are correct. It's an 1800w, not a 2000w inverter. Primary reason we purchased it was for the very low .5 - .6a parasitic current. Ran our microwave fine for about a year using 2, GC2 6v leadcell batteries. The microwave has a 1050w line input power rating; however, in reality it uses almost 1300w (why, I don't know; very little DC or AC voltage sag).
After we upgraded our TC with a DIY 200ah lifepo4 battery pack and 40a dc to dc charger, we wanted to run our a/c, too. The ProWatt SW2000 was a no-go, even with a Micro Air Easy Start installed on the a/c. Not surprising because the 1800w ProWatt SW2000 has very low inrush current (only 3000w *peak* power vs. 4000w *peak* power for most lower tier 2000w inverters).
Sold the ProWatt and upgraded to an Aims 2000 watt ?PWRI200012120S inverter. After a year and a half and 30,000 mi., the Aims continues to run the a/c unit (1400w), microwave, hair dryer (1800w), vacuum cleaner, etc. flawlessly---lots of very, very hard use in temps as high as 110 deg. Huge kudos to our dc to dc charger for keeping our lifepo4 charged while we're on the road. Without it, we'd only get a fraction of the use out of the inverter (and a/c unit) that we do.
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otrfun
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02/02/23 05:14pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
Really? I'm trying to verify this. How did you get the info? I am just about to pull the trigger on an inverter and want to make sure it will power my 900 w microwave that shows a draw of 1350 watts, as stated earlier. I have been wavering between Renogy, GoPower and Victron. Victron is a lot more expensive, but I want to do this right. GoPower is about $700 US and Renogy a lot cheaper. I don't want to cheap out, but don't want to spend the extra if the Renogy 2000 w in the $300 range will really work well. How do I confirm this?
Thanks!Every installation has its own unique set of variables, so there's no way to guarantee any given result. Ultimately, the right choice boils down to a person's aversion to risk.
Me, I'd give the Renogy RNG-INVT-2000-12V-P2 a try. Amazon sells it for $306 with a 30-day return. Even if it only has a 4000 watt *peak* surge/power rating (vs. 4000 watt for 5 sec), it still may work. For me, it would be worth the risk of a simple return to potentially save $400-$800.
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otrfun
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02/02/23 01:07pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
no, it is thier one that is on sale for 369 cdn right now and includes battery cables and a remot control
2000W 12V Pure Sine Wave Inverter
SKU: RNG-INVT-2000-12V-P2-CA
SteveThanks for clarifying, Steve. I have no reason to doubt you were quoted 4000 watts for 5 sec. I've had all kinds of specs and claims quoted to me over the years.
Interesting that Renogy fails to advertise this outstanding capability anywhere in writing. All their online literature and specs simply claim a generic 4000 watt *peak* surge/power rating.
For the sake of discussion, I will say this: *IF* this $300 (US) 2000 watt Renogy RNG-INVT-2000-12V-P2-US inverter is capable of 4000w for 5 sec, it would make it one of the best performing high-frequency 2000w inverters on the market, regardless of price.
Unfortunately, this is a huge if. As they say, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
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otrfun
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02/02/23 10:57am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Wiring 4 awg charging wire to upgrade 8 awg factory wire.
I believe Ford is still the only one with switched power at the trailer plug.I was just thinking, there could be a condition where you're sitting in the Truck, key on, engine off, and the DC DC charger is pumping 30 amps from the truck battery back to the TC batteries. That could be a recipe for a dead battery . . . To prevent this from happening you can use a battery isolator (BI) which can be installed in the truck or the truck camper, or anywhere in between. Lot easier to install vs. running a trigger wire from the alternator/engine all the way to the dc to dc charger. Takes very little wire/cable to connect a BI.
The BI won't allow power to the dc to dc charger unless it senses voltage higher than 13.3v. This indicates to the BI that the alternator is active. The BI simply closes a relay that allows power to flow to the dc to dc charger. When voltage drops below 12.8v (alternator not active), it opens a relay and cuts-off power to the dc to dc charger.
You can wire the BI to cut-off primary power to the dc to dc charger input, or you use the BI to cut power on/off to the dc to dc charger's ignition trigger wire. Either way, it works in the background, seamlessly, automatically.
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otrfun
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02/01/23 07:22pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Honda generator to truck camper
Once upon a time I had a Progressive Dynamics hard wired EMS system in my AF 811.
It rejected generator power until I flipped a switch on its remote panel to disable one mode of its monitoring - open ground I think.
I always had to remember to flip that switch to use my EU2000.
One aspect of the hard wired unit that I despised, and a portable unit would surely do the same thing when plugged in to a smaller portable gen is this:
Any time my roof A/C compressor kicked on, the generator voltage would drop just enough to trigger the EMS unit to cut off incoming power (low voltage protect). When that happened, the compressor would of course be in a semi-locked rotor condition and would NOT start when the EMS re-enabled incoming power, so the voltage would sag again and the EMS would cut off power.
The ONLY way to get the generator to reliably run the A/C due to the issues with the hard wired EMS I had was to turn on my inverter, which would allow the inverter to carry the load of the A/C when the generator voltage sagged and caused the EMS to kill incoming generator power. Once the EMS re-enable incoming generator power, the inverter transfer switch would enable and switch off inverter mode and then the generator would power the A/C.
For the above reasons, I never recommend using a surge protector (portable or hard wired) when using a smaller sized portable generator.
I had my AF 811 for close to 11 years. About 3 years before I sold it, I removed the hard wired EMS and ebay'd it.We've been using a hardwired Progressive Industries 30a EMS in our truck camper for the last 3 years. It's active, in-circuit, all the time, regardless whether we're on commmercial, generator (Honda 2200), or inverter (2000 watt) power.
A bonding plug is necessary for both the generator and inverter to prevent the E2 open ground error. The bonding plug consists of a male 120vac plug with the neutral bonded to ground which is plugged into the spare outlet on the generator and inverter.
We power our 11k BTU a/c via inverter/battery and generator (not at the same time) regularly and encounter very little, if any, voltage sag--certainly nothing that would trigger the EMS low-voltage cut-off. No doubt the Micro Air Easy Start installed in our a/c, which drops the LRA from 55a to <20a, is certainly a big reason for the lack of voltage sag.
The PI EMS works perfectly for us.
P.S. deltabravo, is it possible you were experiencing more of an issue with your generator lacking enough inrush current to start your a/c compressor, rather than an issue with the PI EMS?? Sounds to me like your EMS was simply doing its job. The voltage dropped too low when your generator was unable to provide enough inrush current to start the a/c compressor, so the EMS simply cut-off power??
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otrfun
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02/01/23 06:16pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
ok so here are the specs. once again renogy customer service was quick and efficient. so there is two specs one for max power (4000watts) and one for overload protection. so it will handle the max power (4000watts) for 5 seconds and if it hits a overload conditions that will trip the inverter to protect it with in 40milli seconds.You didn't state the model number. I would assume that's for the Renogy low-frequency 2000 watt inverter which costs about $600 and weighs about 50 lbs., right? That toroidal coil, which helps provide all the inrush current, makes for a heavy unit. Specs for most of these 2000 watt low-frequency inverters are somewhat similar in terms of their power/duration specs.
The high-frequency Renogy 2000 watt inverter, which costs about $300 and weighs 12 lbs. only has a 4000 watt peak rating as far as I can tell. My guess, the peak rating means it will only output 4000 watts for 20-40 milliseconds. Not enough time to produce much inrush current. I believe this is the unit the OP was looking at purchasing.
The Xantrex 2000 watt Freedom X inverter, which I believe is also a high-frequency unit (at 15 lbs.), will output 4000 watts >2 sec. Xantrex states specifically it's very effective for starting motors. That's an awesome spec for a high-frequency inverter.
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otrfun
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02/01/23 08:27am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
I can tell you that inrush on a 1000 watt psw inverter is high enough to blow a 30 amp fuse. And that is with no load. DAMHIKI believe you're talking about the current encountered on the INPUT of the inverter when it's connected to a power source without first precharging the inverter caps with a resistor.
Yup, been there, done that--lol!
Note: This is not to be confused with the inrush current produced on the OUTPUT of the inverter---which is the topic currently being discussed.
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otrfun
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01/31/23 11:40am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
On refrigeration equipment you might find "locked rotor amperage" (LRA) which would be worse than normal inrush current.Sorry, have to respectfully disagree. One cannot be any "worse" or better than the other since they both, more or less, describe the same thing.
Air conditioner manufacturers use LRA to quantify the inrush current drawn by the compressor motor at its rated voltage when the rotor is kept stationary. Or, put another way, LRA quantifies the inrush current necessary to place a stationary or locked rotor in a compressor motor in motion.
No manufacturer specs their in rush current.Agree, it's not very common for manufacturers to use the term inrush current when providing specs for their products. The primary reason is because inrush current is a general descriptor for a short, momentary burst (or inrush) of current. The time/duration for measuring inrush current can vary for RV a/c compressors and small household motors as opposed to large commercial equipment.
Inrush current, in terms of starting RV a/c compressors and smaller consumer-type AC motors, is typically measured in less than a second. A Fluke or Amprobe inrush current capable clamp-on ammeter bears this out because it provides inrush current results in less than second. The time/duration for the inrush current analysis is less than a second, but obviously much longer than what's required for a peak reading.
With that being said . . . if an inverter or inverter generator manufacturer specifies current and time/duration at multiple power levels, one can use this data to approximate inrush current performance. For example, a 2000 watt inverter (with a 2000 watt "continuous" power rating) that also has a 4000 watt *peak* power rating will probably provide minimal inrush current. A 2000 watt inverter that can also output 4000 watts for 1-2 seconds should provide excellent inrush current. A 2000 watt inverter that is capable of producing 4000 watts for 5-10 seconds (and/or 6000 watts for 1-2 seconds) should provide outstanding inrush current.
Hope this helps.
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otrfun
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01/31/23 11:15am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
IMO the most important takeaway when discussing inrush, starting, peak, or surge, current is the following: unless a specific time or duration (or testing standard/protocol) is specified for any given current rating, the current rating provides little insight into how the device will perform in the realworld.I do agree the lack of companies putting this in there advertising makes things a little more difficult. personaly I have never been met with any issues when I email the company and ask for that information.You mentioned the Renogy 2000w PSW inverter. Very popular unit. Always wondered what time/duration they used for their peak rating. Did you happen to get this info?
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otrfun
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01/30/23 08:55am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
. . . Choosing a capable 2000w inverter is important. Not all 2000w inverters are created equal. Although most inverters can supply their continuous current rating, many fall short providing suitable amounts of inrush current. Inrush current is necessary to successfully start a/c units and microwaves. Unfortunately, very few manufacturers provide inrush current specs for their inverters.
Good luck!inrush and starting current are the same, just different names depending on the type of equipment. in rush covers any time a electric componant temporatly draws more power when you turn it on, in a motor it is generaly called starting current. every inverter I have seen lists this as peak power. and its usaly a couple K watts above the rated output. for example the renogy is a 2000 watt inverter continious with a peak of 4000 watts that will handle anything on a rv but maby not two large power users at once.
SteveIMO starting current is just a colloquial term to sometimes describe inrush current and not related to any particular type of equipment. Also, peak current is very different from inrush current (see last paragraph).
IMO the most important takeaway when discussing inrush, starting, peak, or surge, current is the following: unless a specific time or duration (or testing standard/protocol) is specified for any given current rating, the current rating provides little insight into how the device will perform in the realworld.
For instance, I could claim a 12vdc/120vac inverter has 2000 watts (16.6a) of continuous output. Notice I specified current AND time/duration (continuous). This is 100% useable data that translates into realworld performance. I could also claim this same inverter produces 4000 watts (33a) of surge or peak output. However, if I don't specify a time or duration it's a meaningless claim in terms of realworld performance. If I claimed it could produce 33a for, say, a few milliseconds, then that 33a is completely useless. Not enough time/duration to help start an a/c compressor or motor. Now, if I claimed it could produce 33a for almost a second (or longer), that's a huge deal in terms of realworld performance---exactly what an a/c compressor or motor needs to sucessfully start. Time/duration is everything in this context.
I've found the following to be generally true for consumer grade inverters and inverter generators: There is no standardized time/duration for a surge rating. Depending on manufacturer, it can range from a fraction of a second to as long as 30 min. A surge rating can be useful *IF* a specific time/duration is specified. IMO peak current is more of a marketing ploy because the time/duration for peak current (1 or 2 cycles) is too short to be of much use in a realworld environment. Time/duration for inrush current is much, much longer (approaching a second). Assuming sufficient current, this is exactly the time/duration necessary to successfully start an a/c compressor or motor.
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otrfun
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01/29/23 02:16pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
11k btu a/c unit. Get about 85-90 min of continuous runtime when we're powering the a/c oh tell me more about this AC, as in brand and model number..It's a Dometic Penguin II that came OEM with our truck camper. Model number is 640310Cxx1C0. Some literature says it's a 10k BTU, others say 11k BTU. Typically this info is stenciled on the compressor housing, but it's not specified on our unit.
Unfortunately, I can't recommend this unit. On the up side, the outside shroud has a nice streamlined, stylish look. On the down side, it's noisy as heck and relatively inefficient. It draws 11-12a (I believe the LRA is approx. 55-56a) . There's a number of more efficient 13.5k BTU a/c's that draw the same 11-12a with a lower LRA. If it fails at some point we'll probably replace it with a 9.5k BTU RecPro.
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otrfun
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01/29/23 09:15am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
You folks are very helpful, thanks. I do get it about wiring and will plan to discard what comes with an inverter and oversize the cabling.
So you can run your air conditioner for over an hour? Wow. I don't plan on using the AC at all and we don't use the microwave much at all, so if this system plan can do that, wife will be happy.
But how do I find out about the inrush current matter? That's a bit concerning to me. I want to do all of this once only and get it right the first time.Sent you a PM.
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otrfun
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01/29/23 08:48am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
I inrush current the same as surge capacity?They're very different.
Time parameters for so-called "surge" current (or capacity) varies significantly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Sometimes it can be a fraction of a second---sometimes up to 30 minutes. Often times they don't even specify. Testing is not standardized. For many devices, it's basically a glorified continuous current rating---more a marketing ploy than anything else.
Inrush current approaches a second in time/duration and can be 2 to 6 times higher than the continuous current rating of the device. Inrush current is a quick, significant burst of current necessary to start inductive devices like an a/c compressor or motor. It takes an inrush current capable AC clamp-on ammeter to measure inrush current. It cannot be measured with a standard AC clamp-on ammeter.
A device can have an excellent, so-called, "surge" capability and a terrible inrush current capability. They're very different capabilities and ratings.
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otrfun
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01/28/23 12:32pm |
Truck Campers
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RE: Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave
We use a 200ah lifepo4 battery pack (equivalent to 2, 100ah lifepo4 batteries in parallel) and a 2000w inverter to power our 1050w (line input power) microwave and 11k btu a/c unit. Get about 85-90 min of continuous runtime when we're powering the a/c (similar runtime for microwave--although we rarely run it for more than 10-15 min.). When we're on the road we recharge the lifepo4 with a 40a dc to dc charger. It's all been working flawlessly now for almost 2 years.
Choosing a capable 2000w inverter is important. Not all 2000w inverters are created equal. Although most inverters can supply their continuous current rating, many fall short providing suitable amounts of inrush current. Inrush current is necessary to successfully start a/c units and microwaves. Unfortunately, very few manufacturers provide inrush current specs for their inverters.
Proper gauge wiring and quality connections are important, too. It can take 110-150a of 12vdc to power a typical microwave or RV a/c unit. That's a lot of current. It's one thing to simply power a microwave and/or a/c unit for a few minutes---it's another thing to do it continuously for an hour or so. Improper wiring and/or bad connections can cause significant voltage drop (and heat). Best case, you won't obtain full power from your inverter---worst case you could start a fire. Don't scrimp on the wiring.
Good luck!
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otrfun
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01/28/23 10:35am |
Truck Campers
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RE: 8 Gauge Wire
. . . What I am looking at installing is DCC30S 12V 30A Dual Input DC-DC On-Board Battery Charger with MPPT. I am looking at the specs but not finding the input current. I am still looking for that. But, and I’m sure I dont understand as well as you, I will be at a bit under 25 ft from truck batt to charger, which based on the specs I see online would be on the long end fog 6 awg, or safe with 4 awg. Right?According to the Renogy website, max rated input power for the DCC30S is 400w. Input voltage range is 13.2 - 16v (alternator voltage minus any voltage drop). Supposedly this unit is capable of up to 97% efficiency--impressive. Unfortunately, they don't state what conditions are necessary to obtain 97%, so efficiency could drop off significantly for other conditions. Based on these specs I'd guess-estimate input current would max out around 31a (current varies dependent on input/output voltage).
25 ft of 4 gauge would probably net you approx. 3% of voltage drop at 30-31a. This is based on the one-way distance (using the voltage calculator link I provided earlier). 3% should be fine. I wouldn't want it any higher.
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otrfun
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01/24/23 04:56am |
Truck Campers
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RE: Help - jacks are draining my batteries
I am using all 4 jacks simultaneously. Maybe a little overly simplistic way of thinking about it (and also maybe a little out of my element here) but it seems like the same amount of power/energy is needed to raise/lower the camper, so whether you break it into pieces (1 or 2 at a time) or do it all at the same time (all 4 jacks) shouldn't matter all that much. If I'm wrong, and doing 1 or 2 at a time would help solve my problem, please let me know.When all 4 Happijacs on our 3000+ lb. 2019 TC are raising the TC up at the same time they draw approx. 25a in warm weather, 30-35a in cold weather (we have the direct drive units). Current draw drops approx. 15-25% when lowering the TC. Two fully charged, reasonably *healthy* group 24/27 batteries should easily power these jacks for at least 1.5 hours before discharging the batteries anywhere near 50%.
Unless you're taking more than 1.5 - 2.0 hours to unload your TC, there is a problem. Either the batteries are not getting sufficiently charged (for any number of reasons) and/or there's excessive voltage drop and/or current draw somewhere in the system. Bad batteries, wiring, connections, converter, motors, etc. can all potentially play a part in this problem.
One could write a small book on how to troubleshoot this. IMO, a good tech should be able to narrow down the source of this problem with a few voltage/current measurements fairly quickly.
Lots of good troubleshooting tips being provided here. Good luck!
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otrfun
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01/21/23 09:45am |
Truck Campers
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