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RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

That means, if I allow 1" space at the 26" way on the cover, and flush with the 29" way, I could put a fresh water tank on top of the cover. So, 25 x 29 = 725. The wheel well cover is about 8 inches high. With a counter top of 36 inches high, and a 2" gap at the top, that means the water tank could be 26" high. 725 x 26 = 18850 cubic inches. Divide that by 231 cu in per gallon and we have 81.6 gallons of fresh water. Multiply that by 8.33 lbs per gallon and when full, and that water would weigh 679 lbs. The good thing is that the weight would be directly over the driver side dual wheels. That is one option. I'll have to measure the original water tank and see what the dimensions are, as that was a 55 gallon tank.
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:55pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Looking at the cover for the wheel well, we have an area about 26" x 29". http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/wheelwellcover.jpg http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/wheelwellcover2.jpg
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:47pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Coming front from the toilet wall, and we have nearly 7 feet from the wall to the edge of the wheel well cover. http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/counterlayout.jpg http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/counterlayout2.jpg That means I can come towards the front about another foot, which will give me 8' of counter space, with the sink in there somewhere.
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:43pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Laying out the lines on the floor and the walls. I have the dimensions shown here, and even though it looks wrong, the next picture will show it better. I could only come out from the side wall about 31 inches, because of the window in the rear wall. An extra couple of inches would have been nice, but it not totally critical. 31" will work. http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/toiletlayout.jpg http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/toiletlayout2.jpg
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:41pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Time to move some plywood, again. Yay, ugh. Lol. Got it out of the way for now, so I can get ready to frame out the toilet area, and then the kitchen sink along with the counter. http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/moveplywood.jpg
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:37pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Anybody remember this pic from a while ago? I took pictures of all the walls, before I covered them up, and had written the distance from the floor to the plywood on the walls, so that once I got to this part of the process, I would know where the plywood was in the walls, so I could anchor my cabinets and any interior walls to them. That is coming in handy, even as we speak. http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/firstplywoodprepare3.jpg
fulltimin 11/20/19 09:35pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Other considerations besides just volume need to be taken into consideration. Your 33 X 33 tank would have some serious pyramid issues. A 1 gallon flush would fill that tank to less than 1/4 inch. Hardly enough to control the solids so that you don't end up with the dreaded pyramid. Even if you preload the tank with 5 gallons of water (25% of your capacity) you would still be just barely over 1 inch deep. I fear that would still be problematical. As you increase the depth of the tank you can start to run into headroom issues. Maybe compromise by putting it partially below the floor and heavily insulating that portion. Grey water tank should not have that issue so it can be pretty much be any size/shape you want. You can use the "duckbill" type trap for the shower so that you do not need to allow for room for a standard P trap. Don't forget that you need to run vent lines for the grey and black tanks. Why are you limiting yourself to the original tank sizes? Weight capacity considerations? Wood is not very energy dense and is not always readily available, especially if it's been raining for a while. Propane is energy dense and is usually available in most campgrounds. One o the guys I race with has a catalytic propane heater that mounts in the side of a cabinet so it takes up no floor space. It will run a LONG time on a 20# propane tank. DW might want propane anyway for the stove/oven so that would not require the addition of another fuel storage need. Personally, I'm not a fan of diesel (other than AquaHot or similar) or gasoline heaters. Come to think of it, you will probably have a propane water heater so that should pretty mich drive the selection of the fuel for your cabin heat. Sorry for the long, rambling post, but hey, it's Tuesday. Actually, thank you for the "long, rambling post"! The 33 x 33 tank was an illustration of how to figure tank sizes. I could very easily go smaller in width and length and higher which would take care of part of the dreaded "poopsicle". I will say, I hadn't thought about the lack of water height in a tank of that size, but then again, I wasn't planning on using one that large, width and length. Even at 24 x 24 wouldn't give a lot of water in the bottom with a 1 gallon head start. The original tank was deeper, - I guess I should measure it, because we never did have any issue with the "sicles" in that one. The original setup had about a 6 - 8 inch platform that the toilet sat on, with the plastic pipe going down through the floor into the tank which was below the floor, and completely exposed to whatever the outside temperature was. Hey, a composting toilet would solve that problem. JOKING!!!!! Gray water tank could be combined with the black water tank and only have one. Yea, I know, if that overfills, and backs up, it would not be a good thing. HOWEVER, we never hookup to city water. I always fill the fresh water tank, and then use the pump to supply our water. As long as the single waste tank is larger than the fresh water tank, it can't over fill, (the way we use it), since we are not connected to city water. I would LOVE to have a 100 gallon fresh water tank there, but I am not sure weight will allow it. Until I weigh the coach, I won't know for sure. That would be great for boondocking. As far as heat goes, since we are going into colder temperatures, I plan on playing around to see exactly how much heat we will need to keep things at a comfortable temp. There will be more info on that in the coming months, since I haven't done anything with it yet. Thanks for the post!
fulltimin 11/19/19 10:04pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Well, I am NON-PLUSSED! ( surprised and confused so much that they are unsure how to react.)! I was "sure" after last night's post, that when I woke up this morning, there would be at least 6-10 posts telling me why tanks inside the coach was a really bad idea. By the time the day was over, there would be at least 1 - 2 dozen posts with opinions all over the map. None of that happened. I am surprised to say the least. Only 1 post. Who knew? Certainly not me. Lol.....
fulltimin 11/19/19 09:54pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Maybe now I can get something done, since I have a ..... http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/roundtuit2.jpg
fulltimin 11/18/19 08:44pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/roundtuit.jpg
fulltimin 11/18/19 08:43pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Where's the furnace and have you considered where the ducts will go? Do you plan on running a heat duct to the area where the water tanks will be? Will you be insulating around the water tanks? At this point, I have no plan on using a furnace, as they blow about as much hot air outside through the exhaust as they do to the inside of the coach. (more or less). I am considering using more of a "stove" of sorts to keep things warm inside, whether it be propane, diesel, wood, or gasoline. Could also use a wave type propane heater, or maybe something else that I haven't heard of yet. Maybe someone else has a good idea. This is going to sound completely off the wall, BUT, I very well may keep all 3 tanks inside the coach. SAY WHAT????? Well, let's back up a minute. In the lower 48 states, tanks are generally placed underneath the floor, insulated, if planning on using the rig even close to 4 seasons. HOWEVER, when creating an rv, bus, or tiny home, for use in, say, ALASKA, EVERYTHING changes. It's common to put the tanks inside to keep them from freezing. On this rv, the fresh water tank was inside from the factory. It was nice, because I didn't need to have electronics to check the water level of the fresh tank. I just opened a cupboard door, and could see the level. I like that. No fuss, no muss. Having the gray and black tanks inside will eliminate the need for extra insulation, heating elements, etc. But what if it leaks? Fix it, I guess. Having both tanks enclosed in a water proof structure would go a long way to keep any leak from getting out of hand. Think water bed with a liner in case the water bed mattress leaks, the liner will contain the leak, and not have water running all over the bedroom. Is that a given at this point? No, but I am strongly leaning in that direction. I do have space under the floor to put the tanks without interfering with the frame rails, and keeping the tanks high enough not to scrape during normal operation. Could I put them down below and insulate heavily, while running a small fan to keep things above freezing temperatures? Sure. Will I? Not planning on it at this point, but that could be subject to change, if someone has a better idea, I am all ears. By the way, in order to figure tank size, we use the following formula. 1 gallon of water = 231 cu inches. The original black tank was 20 gallons. 20 x 231 = 4620 cu inches. Let's assume that we are putting the tank directly under the toilet, and the toilet area is 33 inches x 33 inches. 4620 / 33 = 140. 140 / 33 = 4.24 inches. That means a tank 4 1/4 inches high, and 33 x 33 will hold 20 gallons of water. That takes very little space, is all contained under the toilet, is inside, (think warm), with 2 slide shutoff valves. One at the very bottom of the tank, and the other at the side of the rv where the black hose would be attached, outside. Remember, this would be for cold weather rving. If the rving is done in more temperate climates, freezing would not be an issue, and the tanks could be placed outside with no insulation, which is how this rv was built in the first place. So, there is my thinking, and again, is still semi flexible at this point. Feel free to let me know why I should or should not do that! Lol.
fulltimin 11/18/19 08:36pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

The black tank must be located so that the commode will empty directly down into it. Will it clear the chassis frame. "Must be located" is preferred but not a requirement. There are multiple options for locating a toilet NOT directly above a black tank. I've seen 5th wheels where the toilet was not directly above the black tank. The pipe was set on about a 30 degree angle down to the black tank, which was about 3 beneath the toilet and off to the one side. That was plenty of slope to keep the small amount of water and solids moving all the way to the tank. Generally speaking, having the toilet directly above the black tank makes it easy to flush, and easy to clean the black tank if you use a wand going directly down through the toilet itself. That's the old school way of cleaning out the black tank, instead of having the tank mounted water sprayers inside to do the same thing.
fulltimin 11/18/19 08:01pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Where will the holding tanks (fresh, gray and black) be located? Will the access be clear of obstructions if located under body? How will everything balance out on weight distribution? You can refer to above diagram. To put things into perspective, the original location of heavy items were as follows. The 55 gal water tank was in front of the drivers side wheel well - that would be a little in front of where the proposed kitchen sink. The black tank was under where the proposed shower is. The gray tank was between the proposed commode and storage on the passenger side. The tank was between the frame rails. The refrigerator was just inside the entry door, towards the rear, and the heavy generator was back where the proposed Pantry is located. The way I see it, the 456.5 lbs of water on the drivers side, were offset by the refer and the generator on the passenger side. In the new floor plan, the water on the drivers side, should be offset by the refer, the pantry, and the storage, on the passenger side, or at least mostly when they are full, or mostly full. The new location of the water tanks will be - fresh water under and slightly in front of the sink, gray and black tanks under the shower and commode, so those weights won't change much overall. I haven't figured in the propane tank yet, if I have one. It was originally behind the pilot's seat, and with my butt there, the left front corner was always a little heavy. Propane tank when full amounted to about 200 lbs. I could probably get away with putting that on the passenger side, behind the copilot's seat. There, that should be about as clear as mud! :)
fulltimin 11/17/19 09:42pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Where will the holding tanks (fresh, gray and black) be located? Will the access be clear of obstructions if located under body? How will everything balance out on weight distribution? Great questions. I agree, great questions. :)
fulltimin 11/17/19 09:42pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/newfloorplanupdate.jpg Looks good but I think their is some under-utilized space at the rear. https://i.imgur.com/qQbwQ7P.jpg width=600 Could you use that space for the commode, with access from the commode to the shower and into shelves in the storage in the corner? This would give you more counter space in the galley with storage under? Maybe refer moves across the cabin, next to the shower? Several different ways you could go with it, employing that space at the back. Just thinking out loud... ;) https://i.imgur.com/VBepGlJ.jpg width=500 While I agree the area at the back is somewhat under utilized, there is a window back there that I want to keep clear. Moving the commode, would also make it difficult to access the bottom of the storage cabinet, and cover part of the pantry. The shower area with the blue stripes, indicates a counter top that will flip up, when the shower is in use, which is only about 10 minutes a day, and flipped down to be used as counter space the rest of the day, which will amount to about 8 feet of counter space, with the sink in the middle, (ish). More about weights in a minute..... http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/newfloorplanupdate2.jpg
fulltimin 11/17/19 09:41pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

The new ceiling looks great, BTW... :C Thank you. :)
fulltimin 11/17/19 09:39pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Since red is my favorite color, I think that old Pace Arrow's color scheme is great and would look fabulous on yours. I like the convertible sofas, too. They look very lightweight, which might be helpful in your overall weight. The Travasack sleep system is still available, or systems like it. If you do a search for it, one that immediately comes up is RV Superbag. I'll give the color scheme more consideration. Not going to be painting in the next couple of weeks anyway. Thanks for the link for the superbag. I hadn't searched for them recently, but that is exactly what I had in mind. Sure would beat "making the bed". Just a quick roll up and unroll, and we are good to go.
fulltimin 11/17/19 09:39pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Well, I spent some time today looking at the floor plans that I had drawn up. Before I can git crackin, I need to have a plan in place, so I know what to put where. After considering some options, I think I'll get started on this updated version, starting on the drivers side with the commode, shower, and kitchen sink with some counter space next to it. The opposite side, might be adjustable during the process, we'll see. It would still be easy to move the refer and stove to the rear, and add a table/chairs between the stove and entry door. Still need to run this by the wife, so it could change, but so far, she hasn't come up with anything else that she's happy with. The beauty of this plan is, all the water will be in a small area, so very little piping will be needed. http://paddleupstream.com/mohorebuild/newfloorplanupdate.jpg
fulltimin 11/16/19 09:55pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Git crackin, boy. Time's a wastin! Sounds exactly like something my grandfather would have said! Lol.
fulltimin 11/16/19 12:44pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

Did you really misspell "meats" (meets) on purpose? Nope. Guess I should have proof read a little better.
fulltimin 11/16/19 06:34am Class A Motorhomes
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