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Subject |
Author |
Date Posted |
Forum
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RE: Trailer Brakes Not Staying On
Hi,
Your added info has helped.
You are correct, the brake controller was an aftermarket add on by someone. Ford never started adding brake controllers until the 2005 Super Dutys with an integrated controller. The last Excursion, a 2005 model, never got the upgrade, nor did the V10 engine upgrades the Superdutys did.
I agree with Barney, you "might" now have a brake controller issue. At this point, ideally, you can sort out, is the problem in the trailer or the truck?
Here is one way to help sort out truck or camper. You stated this,
-We hooked up and initially the controller had a stead green light indicating everything was fine.
-Before moving the trailer the contrôler began blinking a single green light noting a short or excessive current request.
That is the setup for the test if you can recreate it or close to it. The truck and camper hitched but not moving, and the brake controller started acting up.
By hitching up and powering the brake controller, but not moving the trailer, the brake controller can warm up, and if the controller starts showing faults, then try this.
Step 1, Unplug the 7 wire cable from the truck. Position the 7 wire cord up so it will not drag the ground.
Now, with the 7 wire disconnected, pull the emergency break away, this will apply full power to the brakes.
Move the truck ahead very slowly. You are trying to do a drag test. You should feel large braking action on the trailer, you do not want to drag the wheels, but should feel very hard braking. Gravel is best for this test so the tires skid, but you can tell real quick if the trailer is braking hard on a hard surface road, 1 or 2 feet movement will tell you, but the camper does have to move about 6" rolling forward to engage the brakes. The wheels may or may not lock up, but you should feel the brakes working.
If the camper has brakes, this does not mean 100% that there is not a trailer problem, but it rules out many things. Enough to at least suspect the issue is in the truck.
When you unplug the 7 wire, and the truck was on, the controller may stop the fault or not. It should sense an unhooked trailer at least. Not sure what it will read out as, as the controller may be damaged. But you at least now know, the trailer brakes worked during the breakaway test.
There is also something you should know, some brake controllers cannot handle a large current back feed from the camper. By pulling the emergency break away, with the 7 wire cord attached to the truck with the brake controller powered up, is a high back feed current into the controller from the camper battery. That back feed action has damaged some brands/models of brake controllers.
If you want to try to reset the brake controller in a test mode, pull out the 7 wire cable and plug it back in, or turn the truck power on an off, but do not use the emergency breakaway switch as that can be a problem.
Here is a thought, when your breakaway switch was failing originally and melted the switch, that event was sending a back feed of current into the truck brake controller. That may have damaged the controller, and now you are fighting a brake controller issue.
There should be nothing wrong with your new breakaway switch unless something really odd going on. It is just a simple switch, on or off, unless it is corroded which is not yet.
Hope this helps, and let us know how it goes.
John
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JBarca
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03/20/23 09:20am |
Towing
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RE: Trailer Brakes Not Staying On
We need a little more info to try and help better. You may have more than one issue going on at a time.
What year is the camper? Make and model?
Not sure if you are the original owner or not; any idea how many towing miles are in it?
What brand and model brake controller do you have?
When you stated you appeared to have corrected the issue, then after some time passed into towing once again, the brakes stopped working. What told you the brakes were not working in "all" the times when they stopped working? Did the brake controller flash, if the brake controller had no errors; you could not feel the brakes working, etc.? We need more info on how you knew they were working and when they were not working.
Here are some big-picture things that "might" be going on. Any and all may be going on at the same time.
The melted breakaway switch, these switches do go bad over time. Water gets in and corrodes the contacts making them fail in a few ways.
- The pin can get frozen in place as the O ring dries up, and it feels like it jams the plunger in.
- When the contacts corrode, and the pin is pulled, the resistance in the switch is very high and starts creating a lot of heat, and, in some cases the switch melts.
- The contact corrosion can sometimes corrode the contacts together if it is bad enough, with the plunger in place. This allows the power to be on a lot of the time and since the connection has high resistance, it creates a lot of heat for a long time and might be what melted your switch.
- The 3 above are the more common failure modes; I'm sure there are more. If you read the directions on these switches, many brands state to replace them every 3 to 5 years. The breakaway is a forgotten safety device. I have seen many campers 10 to 20 years old still with the original switch.
While you changed the switch, the braking problem still seems to be happening. As I stated, you may have more than one problem at the same time. Yes, the breakaway switch was bad, but there can be more.
1. As the other poster stated, check the 7 wire brake plug/connection. Clean up all the contacts. It is common that corroded contacts can make and break as the truck bounces down the road or the cord is pulling from not enough clearance in a turn etc.
2. You may have the classic old camper worn wire inside the axle tube problem. As the camper gets older with higher towing miles, the wire inside the axle tube is chaffed bouncing down the road. The hot wire or ground wire can have the insulation worn clean through to the wire. When the hot wire touches the tube, and you apply the brake power, it shorts the brake coil from getting any power. This comes and goes depending on how the worn wire lands in the tube.
3. You have bad brake connections in the wiring in the camper. It can be the ground wire not making contact. While the hot wire gets looked at a lot, losing ground will stop the brakes from working also. In this case, if you lose the DC -, (ground), in the 7 wire cable where it attaches to the camper, the camper frame lost ground or any other grounding place all the way to the brake coils.
4. If the breakaway switch was partly on for a long time when it failed, the brakes had some level of power going to them for a long time while towing. After you check all the wiring as stated above, you may have to pull the brake drums and look inside for mechanical issues. There are many issues that can happen inside, maybe not all 2 or 4 brakes at once, but if the breakaway was sending power for hours on end while towing, something could be wearing at a higher than normal rate.
You stated, it seemed like when you pulled the new breakaway switch pin and reinserted it, the brakes seemed to start working again. This may just be a coincidence, it is not the cure of your problems. Applying full power and then removing it, cycles the magents and can wiggle the magnet arm. This wiggle action may free up a brake that was partly tight being engaged when you stopped. The event was temporary and random.
Older campers have the above more frequently than newer ones, but not always.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/18/23 07:02am |
Towing
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RE: F-250 vs F-350 srw
You state that the F350 RAWR is 6340 on the 350?? my F350 is 7240#
Is it a srw or dwr?
I was told the the srw are the same.
As was said, Ford has a lot of sizing differences for the SRW F350.
My 2005 F350, (gasser) has front 4,800# GAWR, Rear, 7,000# GAWR and a 11,000# GVWR. I'm on LT275/70R18's LR E.
I'm hoping Ford still has the "source book". If they do, get one for the model year you are looking at, and it has all the Super Duty sizes/spring configurations and other really good data on each truck etc. I told my dealer before I would buy mine, give me a sourcebook for this truck, or I'm not buying it. He had no issues getting me a printout before I even signed the papers. They are good to have for future things to look up.
If your post was to ask for F250 or F350, go for the F350 SRW with the right spring pack and tire setup.
Hope this helps,
John
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JBarca
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03/14/23 10:13pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: A/C blower motor question..
That helps alot John.
So that seems like two votes for the AO Smith. I will try to find one of their motors.
The other issue is how fresh is the motor off the assy line? Those sleeve bearings are just soaked in oil so won't they dry out over time?
Also... you guys just reminded me.. I bought one of those EZ Start kits and never installed it. I should dig that up.
Yes, I did return to Pennsylvania for the last summer season. The AC ran, but that is when I started to notice what seemed like blower motor noise. I went up on top the other day, and the motor does spin if you use your hand, but it doesn't spin freely. There is significant friction.
Hi ground hog,
The bronze bushings with oil, odds are high that those are oil-impregnated sintered bronze bushings. In the industry, they are nicknamed "Oiltite bushings" as Oilight was one of the original inventors. These guys, I think, were bought out along the way. https://oilite.com/oilite-all-products
There are many brands now that sell oil-impregnated sintered bronze bushings. The heat of friction draws the oil out of the bushing to keep the bushing lubricated. If the bushing brand is good, I have seen AC units last 20-plus years with those bushings.
Now to your drag and noise; by your description, you might have a problem other than the bushings that can create excess drag and noise. Coleman Mach shows they are using a prop fan on the outside and a squirrel cage fan on the inside. I do not know your model, but here is a parts list on a Mach 3 + a common TT AC unit. https://www.airxcel.com/DesktopModules/RvProduct/Pdf/r667.pdf
The inside squirrel cage fan may have shifted and is rubbing on the housing. I have not worked on the Machs, but I have on the Dometics, which are built, in concept, close to the same. What led you to believe it was the motor bushing versus a fan wheel rub?
Again not knowing your AC model number and not being fluent with the Mach's, I'm not sure if you can see up at the squirrel cage fan from inside the camper with the air box removed or if you have to go in from the top down without much work. Maybe one of our other guys who have been into these can tell. On the Dometic, I know you can get in not too hard from the top down, pull the cover and the blower housing cover off, and the fan is exposed to see the inside fan wheel.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/13/23 06:44pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: A/C blower motor question..
I saw A.O.Smith? brand blower motors, but I didn’t see one for the Coleman ac.
I think they make really good hot water heaters. I had one last a, long time.
Hi, this may help,
The AO Smith brand was used in the Domeitic AC's or at least on the older Brisk Air units. I have not had one fail yet on the Brisk Air II so I do not know if they stuck with them.
Not sure if you knew, Coleman-Mach has a standard 2-year part and labor warranty. https://coleman-mach.com/service-support/warranty/
You said two seasons; I didn't know when the installation dates. There may be some warranty left on it. They may make you take it to a service center to pay for the warranty.
On the motor issues, by chance, while you are in AZ now, did the camper come back northeast into freezing temps since it was installed? Or go to north AZ where it does snow? I know some of the Dometics that live in the eastern winter states have an issue with the motor rotor getting corroded to the stator over the winter/springtime thaw. The motor sweats from the fast-rising spring temp on a frozen motor, condensation starts inside the motor, and it can lock up the motor in the worst case. This issue comes in different levels of binding, but it can give symptoms as you are stating. That said, this may not be the issue if your camper never went through a freeze/thaw cycle.
The compressor can sometimes have big and little capacitors on the compressor, with one being a hard start capacitor. The fan normally only has one capacitor, which has less start-up surge. There are ways to test the capacitor, some digital multimeters have a test on them, and the older analog meters can tell if the capacity is dead.
Heads up, when you get a new motor, which may be a different brand and model than the one you had, check the label for the required capacitor size; not all AC fan motors use the same size. You might have to change the capacitor to work correctly with the new motor as the size is different.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/13/23 07:18am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
Hi Boondocker,
I have tried several times over the last two days to try and understand your point of view, and I keep coming back to, you appear to have taken a set of words out context in the way they were meant for. I will try one last time to explain.
I did not say all your info is wrong, just what was stated below.
"Water coming from a hot water faucet (even if cold) means water is getting into and out of the water heater,"
^ That my friend is mis-information.
You can have water come out of a hot faucet when the water heater is bypassed. No water is entering or leaving the water heater.
Here is a quote section from my original post that is being talked about so you do not have to flip back to the prior page and you can see the entire paragraph.
Ok thanks, when I unscrewed the aerator that improved the flow. I still don't have hot water though. It is supposed to be an electric HW heater. I checked all of the circuit breakers and they are fine. Outside water valve under the trailer is closed.
Hi,
A few things to confirm and then look for,
1. Confirm this, at any faucet in the camper (bath, shower, kitchen, outside shower etc) at the hot water faucet "only", does any water come out of any faucet? The water may be cold, but knowing if any water comes out helps pinpoint the issue. Water coming from a hot water faucet (even if cold) means water is getting into and out of the water heater, just it may not be hot, which is a different problem. No water coming out of any faucet points to the bypass valves are not letting water in, or out, OR a check valve on the hot outlet port of the water heater is defective pending the type of bypass setup you have.
The first part of the item 1, was meant to have the OP confirm if water would flow out of all the faucets on the hot faucet side. The hope was he could confirm the flow on the hot side would be even at all faucets, ideally the same flow as the cold faucet. I just did not ask him if the flow was even, we never made it that far as he solved the issue.
The items included in blue, is where it seems to be where the problem starts from your view. I could of left item 1 stand with only the first sentence, but I added more detail to help him try and understand why the question was being asked.
Here is the full sentence in quotes you have labeled as misinformation, not just the part you quoted above as a stand alone statement. This is where I believe the miss understanding of context is coming in.
"Water coming from a hot water faucet (even if cold) means water is getting into and out of the water heater, just it may not be hot, which is a different problem. "
That statement had nothing to do with the heater being bypassed or even why it was not getting hot. The sentence is correct for a "non-bypassed" system which is what the statement is all about. If the system is not in bypass, then water should go in and come out of the water heater, pass through the piping where it will come out of the hot water faucets as cold water as it passes through the heater. If the heater is plugged up, or parts of the bypass system are plugged up, water can be restricted and not flow correctly. But if it is flowing well, cold water should show up at the hot faucets then we know the heater is not plugged up. That is the context of the statement, it is about flow through the heater.
I agree with you, cold water can come out of the hot water faucet if the system is in bypass. The context of the statement dealt with the system not bypassed. I'm sure you are not saying cold water cannot pass through a water heater and come out the hot side of a faucet.
Can you now see the context of the statement as I made it?
Since you used the word friend in your last post, that is a good word. As a friendly suggestion, when you see something in my posting or someone else's, that looks wrong, not right, mixed up, etc, trying asking for clarification before labeling the wording as misinformation. The poster may have just plan goofed. It happens, we are human.
Another friendly suggestion, find a different word then the political buzz word, misinformation. That word has a lot of negative meaning to it. See here what synonyms Merriam Webster declares for the word misinformation. https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/misinformation. The first one in the list of synonyms is lie, and the list gets worse from there.
I hope this helps at least explains what was being talked with water passing through the heater.
John
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JBarca
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03/08/23 10:54pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
Hey John...very good pics of the WH bypass system, and the check valve, that is a common problem, causing WH issues on certain models. IMO, using that cheap plastic valve, is just another low quality savings for the manufacturer.
One poster may have misunderstood, but I don't see "misinformation".
Those kitchen aerator screens plug easily, especially if no water filter is used. I sure like having an OEM whole house filter system!
Jerry
Hi Jerry,
Thanks,
I fully agree with you, the plastic poppet check valves are a low cost setup with quality that does not last. While the failure rate is lower on newer campers, the older the camper gets the worse they can be. Any time I pull a water heater out on a camper restoration I'm doing, the check valve is removed and the bypass setup converted to a two, 3 way valve setup by pass.
Thanks again
John
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JBarca
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03/08/23 09:47pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
JBarca - A bypass system is used to bypass the water heater so you can run anti-freeze through all the lines (including the hot water lines) without getting anti-freeze in the heater.
Here are three different configurations of a water heater bypass.
All three allow water to pass through the hot water plumbing while bypassing the water heater.
Boon Docker,
Sorry, you missed my point. I agree with what is said above. A water heater with a "working bypass system" will allow water to pass to the hot water piping. I think we both agree with this. The key to this is "working". We have no idea if his bypass is working, what type, or if he set it correctly.
The OP is new to campers. His post started as water flows as a trickle. Then this,
Ok thanks, when I unscrewed the aerator that improved the flow. I still don't have hot water though. It is supposed to be an electric HW heater. I checked all of the circuit breakers and they are fine. Outside water valve under the trailer is closed.
He may not know how all the bypasses work, how they fail, or how to set them. He said there was no hot water, and cleaning the aerator improved flow, but he never clarified if water was fully flowing, half flowing, or now a big trickle on the hot side or cold. Once that is clarified, then one can start figuring out why it is not hot. If water (cold or hot), is not leaving the heater on full flow, that is a problem to sort out first. I asked him to clarify.
I explained my position on my thought process, with pictures even, yet you may still seem to feel I have posted "Misinformation" in bold letters, no less, without asking for clarification. How are you reading all I have posted as "misinformation"?
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JBarca
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03/06/23 07:37pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
Ok, turns out it is a propane-only HW heater. Problem solved. thx.
Thanks for reporting back. Glad you have it sorted out. At first, I thought you might have misread LP only, but after checking, yup, you may be right. I had to look this up as I cannot believe they still do this.
On page 7 of the 2019 Coleman Lantern brochure, it states as standard equipment, "6-gallon gas DSI water heater with bypass kit."
Select 2019, then Coleman Lantern
https://www.dutchmen.com/digital-brochure-download
The RV industry continues to amaze me sometimes. Here in 2019, an RV manufacturer installed an LP-only water heater. :h This was common in the '80s, as few electric element options existed; even DSI was the "new thing". I would have thought by 2019; a combo LP/electric heater would be a standard thing. I guess not, live and learn.
Happy camping this season with you new to your camper. Fun times ahead! :C
John
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JBarca
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03/06/23 07:10pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
Ok thanks, when I unscrewed the aerator that improved the flow. I still don't have hot water though. It is supposed to be an electric HW heater. I checked all of the circuit breakers and they are fine. Outside water valve under the trailer is closed.
Hi,
A few things to confirm and then look for,
1. Confirm this, at any faucet in the camper (bath, shower, kitchen, outside shower etc) at the hot water faucet "only", does any water come out of any faucet? The water may be cold, but knowing if any water comes out helps pinpoint the issue. Water coming from a hot water faucet (even if cold) means water is getting into and out of the water heater, just it may not be hot, which is a different problem. No water coming out of any faucet points to the bypass valves are not letting water in, or out, OR a check valve on the hot outlet port of the water heater is defective pending the type of bypass setup you have
2. Please let us know the make and model of the heater. We are assuming you have a tank-type heater, but some campers now have tankless heaters, which are different.
Assuming you have water coming out of hot faucets, just not hot, try this:
3. Make sure the circuit breaker in the power converter is ON for the water heater.
4. If you have an Atwood or Suburban tank-type water heater, they normally have an LP gas mode. Does the LP gas mode work to fire the burner? If the gas side does not fire the burner, the controls can lock out the electric portion. Here is where we need the make/model of the heater to dig deeper.
Make sure there is water in the heater before ANY water heating is started. The electric element can burn out in short order, seconds if there is no water in the heater. If the LP gas mode works, but the electric portion does not, as long as 120 AC power is going to the heater, and the controls are on, the water should heat in about 20 to 30 minutes. The element may be burnt out if 120-volt AC power is getting to the element heater.
The above is sort of generic, we really need to know the heater make and model to help better.
If you do not know how the bypass valves work, post a picture of the back of the heater, and they will tell us how it is piped.
I hope this helps,
John
Reply #1 - Misinformation.
Water will still come out the hot water faucet if the water heater is bypassed.
Hi Boondocker,
Not all campers are created equal. And then there is an interpretation of the meaning. There are at least two types of water heater bypass systems. There may even be more. We do not know which the OP has. My comments came from these two types I often see not knowing what they have.
1. One 3-way valve / one check valve bypass setup. In this setup, there is a 3-way selector valve on the bottom cold inlet to the heater and a check valve only on the hot top discharge port. A bypass pipe connects the selector valve T outlet to the downstream piping of the check valve T. This setup looks like this in general. Different types and brands of valves can be used, pending on the manufacturer.
The yellow arrow points to the Flar-It brand 3-way selector valve on an Atwood water heater.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4854/32070241198_0f7126104f_o.jpg width=640
At the top of the heater on the hot water discharge is a brass outer check valve with a plastic poppet valve stem with an O-ring. You can see the brass fitting here.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4885/44125028880_9f1115d1e7_o.jpg width=640
In this type of bypass setup, a common failure as the camper ages is the check valve. The keeper on the plastic valve stem pops off and lands inside the tank. The spring on the valve stem pops the valve stem out into the hot water piping system. If the plumbing has a hard 90-degree elbow like in the picture above, that valve stem jams into the elbow and will result in greatly to totally restricting the flow to a dribble.
Here is the keeper on the end of the valve stem that can pop off into the tank
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48004656103_5ce66db3a0_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/4635/39331405842_8224eab74d_o.jpg width=640
This is the other end of the plastic valve stem that can fly out and jam in a 90-degree elbow
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48004616811_d2d322d20a_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/4683/38653260044_7d0eca8c4b_o.jpg width=640
With that valve stem jammed in the elbow, even if the water heater is not bypassed, water is greatly reduced or will only dribble out the hot water faucet.
2. There is also a two-valve bypass setup. In this case, there are two 3-way selector valves on the water heater and no check valve. This setup eliminates the check valve failure, but it can be confusing sometimes to a new owner of this style setup if the top or bottom 3-way valve is not selected correctly. The bottom valve can be in bypass mode, and the top valve still be in the normal operating mode (non-bypass), and no water will flow out of the hot water faucet as the system is only partly bypassed. The combo can be mixed up the other way also, the top in bypass and the bottom not, water sill will not flow to the faucet.
Here is one example of the two, 3-way selector valve set up on the bench when the water heater was being serviced. The brass fittings you see are not check valves; they are brass hex-close nipples.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48004616946_9d7a74f50b_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48004616621_8e16b8f697_o.jpg width=640
I have seen enough plastic plunger check valve failures on the first bypass setup to know "it happens." I stand by my troubleshooting advice; water can be greatly restricted to not flowing out of the hot water faucets regardless, the 2 valve setup could be set wrong, the check valve/ one 3-way valve method could be set to not bypass with the check valve failed and no water flows pending the piping setup. The OP stated, no hot water at the faucet, he just never stated water was flowing even if cold or not flowing, or what the bypass condition exactly was.
If you see an issue with my thought process, please let me know. I learn something new all the time, and I am open-minded to listen.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/06/23 06:22pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Water works in bathroom, but Kitchen sink is just a trickle
Ok thanks, when I unscrewed the aerator that improved the flow. I still don't have hot water though. It is supposed to be an electric HW heater. I checked all of the circuit breakers and they are fine. Outside water valve under the trailer is closed.
Hi,
A few things to confirm and then look for,
1. Confirm this, at any faucet in the camper (bath, shower, kitchen, outside shower etc) at the hot water faucet "only", does any water come out of any faucet? The water may be cold, but knowing if any water comes out helps pinpoint the issue. Water coming from a hot water faucet (even if cold) means water is getting into and out of the water heater, just it may not be hot, which is a different problem. No water coming out of any faucet points to the bypass valves are not letting water in, or out, OR a check valve on the hot outlet port of the water heater is defective pending the type of bypass setup you have
2. Please let us know the make and model of the heater. We are assuming you have a tank-type heater, but some campers now have tankless heaters, which are different.
Assuming you have water coming out of hot faucets, just not hot, try this:
3. Make sure the circuit breaker in the power converter is ON for the water heater.
4. If you have an Atwood or Suburban tank-type water heater, they normally have an LP gas mode. Does the LP gas mode work to fire the burner? If the gas side does not fire the burner, the controls can lock out the electric portion. Here is where we need the make/model of the heater to dig deeper.
Make sure there is water in the heater before ANY water heating is started. The electric element can burn out in short order, seconds if there is no water in the heater. If the LP gas mode works, but the electric portion does not, as long as 120 AC power is going to the heater, and the controls are on, the water should heat in about 20 to 30 minutes. The element may be burnt out if 120-volt AC power is getting to the element heater.
The above is sort of generic, we really need to know the heater make and model to help better.
If you do not know how the bypass valves work, post a picture of the back of the heater, and they will tell us how it is piped.
I hope this helps,
John
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JBarca
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03/06/23 02:49pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: How much of rise on front of truck acceptable when hitched?
A lot of people loved his posts and no matter if they loved them or not, he never got upset or posted snarky or flaming posts back. Some took offense at his great knowledge and expertise but Ron would answer their flaming posts in a calm, thorough manner and usually shut the flamer down.
He was a huge asset to our forums and his passing was a great loss to many many people. I feel very fortunate to have known him and be able to call him my friend.
Barney
X2 Barney, Ron & I often connected offline on some WD hitch topic, and he would analyze my raw data to help come to a conclusion.
He is missed.
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JBarca
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03/01/23 06:08pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: stairs
I'm not familiar with the Glow steps, but if they store outside, it likely requires a modification of the outside of my RV. And why would I want to try something else when I'm perfectly happy with what I have?
Hi,
I am not trying to talk you out of your Mor-Ryde steps, Mor-Ryde makes good products. I want to show you what the Glow Step is, as FYI, and for those following along.
We had a very good and solidly mounted 3-step fold-out set of Hickey Springs folding steps made in 2003. The mounting frame was bolted to the floor where an outrigger was, and the bottom of the step frame was welded to the main frame rail. Between the floor mount, the main frame rail mount, and the fact the steps themselves were made of rigid steel, they worked well for most of our camping situations.
Our floor plan (rear living area) has the main entrance door at the back. We camp a lot on lakefront campsites that are a downhill back in to get to the site. To level out the camper, the nose of the camper is almost touching the ground, and the back wall is 3 feet off the ground. In this case, I need a 4th step, and I have wrestled with how to deal with uneven ground.
The 4th freestanding step, with four legs, was solid, but the uneven ground required a shim under one or two feet. After a few days of walking on it, the shim wiggles out, and the step is unstable. I came down the steps and almost went tumbling, then a day later, my wife did on that last step. That did it for me; I need to change this before one of us breaks a leg or worse.
The Mor-Ryde step was an option, but in our case, even though the legs could extend to the ground, the long, deeper last step had to be filled with something, and I am back to the same problem. I need a 4th step. Doing a 13 to 15" one-step rise at the bottom is not good coming down. This leads me to Tork-lift, which makes truck camper steps. They have a 4 to 5-foot gap to bridge, and they do it well. They offer a set of steps for 5'ers and TT's.
Here is how mine integrated. This may not work if you do not have the older style fold-out steps or the ability to cut the fender skit on the camper.
The older steps before conversion
https://live.staticflickr.com/804/41460605951_7e6c41d6be_o.jpg width=640
The new Glow Step install. I took out the steps and left the heavy rigid frame in place.
https://live.staticflickr.com/867/41460605081_f3b5b58e47_o.jpg width=640
Install a 4 step Glow Step
https://live.staticflickr.com/885/41460607031_5769144914_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/798/41460606801_081aa9bf83_o.jpg width=640
They have a lever on the side; you have three heights on the top step if you must lower the steps as the camper is way high at the step area. And you can push them in to make them shorter. And there are 2 feet adjusted to the ground.
https://live.staticflickr.com/868/41460607331_55d7fbb101_o.jpg width=640
Here was the campsite that we love to camp at, and it was the last straw to have to do something with the entry steps. This was the summer of 2017.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52719905873_af4250ae95_b.jpg width=640
A closer look at the separate 4th step. You can see how much wood is under the stabilizers to level the camper.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52719841135_6f25efb3f1_b.jpg width=640
Here is the summer of 2018 after the Glow Steps install. To date, this has solved all our 4th step issues, and they are a very solid step with the 2 feet to the ground. This is not a cheap upgrade but worth it for us.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52719683894_2e15247069_b.jpg width=640
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/01/23 08:24am |
Tech Issues
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RE: stairs
Sorry, but your cost of OEM versus retail is wrong. Granted, there is a LOWER cost at OEM but the fact remains, that Retail costs are higher for the door fold down. BUT, the OEM for both types will be lower, but the door type is still higher than the standard old style. MOST of the door fold outs have an adjustable bottom leg to meet different uneven patio pads. I have NEVER had a customer complain about the door step type system. Doug
Hi Doug,
Maybe I was misunderstood. I agree that the Solid step may cost more than a good set of older fold-out steps. The price we see at retail or dealer cost differs greatly from at OEM. And you appeared to agree with this.
My main point is labor at the OEM; there is a significant difference at the OEM on labor mounting a Solid step unit (very little labor) compared to an older well-mounted fold-out step. I'm sure you may agree with this.
At the OEM level, profit per unit can be higher selling a camper with a Solid step versus a well-mounted and made older style fold-out step. While the raw material of the step may be higher with the solid step, the offset of labor savings makes it well worth paying more for material than labor.
I'm good with OEM's selling campers to customers who want that style step, but to force it across all floor plans with no other options, and they make more profit by selling it that way, does not sit well. If it is worth more, sell the Solid step as an upgrade. I know that takes more time and inventory on the part of the OEM. Giving the customer options can cause them more loss.
I will also add for the general good of the post, in the last 8 to maybe 12 years; there has been a flood of, in my opinion, very weak fold-out style steps being made. These are not the older style rigid fold-out steps mounted rigidly to the camper. (This stronger set all costs more $$) The same thing invaded the scissors stabilizers with weak, thin metal. I was appalled to see fold-out steps and how the OEM mounted them so weak on new campers. They bend and bounce significantly just walking up them. They are trying to hit a price point on what a new camper buy will bear. Or the OEM is trying to increase profitably. Entry steps should not be one of the places to cut costs that deep.
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JBarca
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03/01/23 07:26am |
Tech Issues
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RE: stairs
The fold up IN the RV type step cost $600
The OLD style fold out steps are $250 to $400. So where and why would some state price as a reason????? The new style are much more stable than regular fold out steps. Doug
One possible reason is labor costs at the OEM level. Labor is often one of the highest manufacturing costs of a product.
For the older style fold-out steps, the higher-end camper RV manufacturers integrated a well-mounted set of steps, not the diving board set of steps, -welded part of the step framework to the main frame rails and bolted them to the floor to reduce the diving board effect and for reduced liability of the step unit breaking away from the camper. Then they had to cut the siding skirt for the steps, and some brands even installed a trim skirt bezel around the opening. With more parts and labor involved, the added cost of the product to produce goes up.
With the new fold-down steps (LCI (solids Step) or Mor-Ryde) on the assembly, line labor is significantly reduced. LCI, which now makes many entry doors, has a slightly shorter screen door to create a larger gap at the bottom with added felt on the bottom to allow for the threshold plate the Solid step uses. To install the solid step on the assembly line, drop the mounting plate over the threshold, shoot 4 to 6 screws in, and they are done—no cutouts in the lower siding or door bezel parts. There is no welding to the frame or bolting of the steps to the bottom of the floor. And they can now even sell a doormat to catch the dirt the steps can leave inside when folding up. Make some more profit.
Marketing and management set the retail selling price for retail versus OEM cost. What we see on retail or even at the dealer cost differs greatly from what the OEM pays.
These are just a few thoughts on how the RV manufacturer can save money on installing a quick attaching set of steps and try turning it into a selling feature. The thought possibly being it's new, it is solid, and thinking it should help sell the camper better. But, it should be a choice as we all do not camp or store the camper the same.
In my case, I upgraded the main entry steps to the Torklift Smart Step-Glow Step system. It is solid, still fits under the same hole as the original Hickery Springs fold-out steps, and deals with more terrain issues in remote campsites. They are very good steps and not cheap. Short of a truck camper, they may never come standard on a TT or 5er; they cost too much. I left the front bedroom doors as the fold-out steps. They are quick and easy for the wife to drop down when we stop along the way and need to get in the camper in the parking lot etc.
John
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JBarca
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02/27/23 05:56pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Atwood 8500 series furnace bench test on high limit switch
Okay thank you. That's what I was afraid of. I did that and nothing happened. Verified 13+ volts to the positive and negative lead. No noise or anything from the furnace. I am going to check all the connections, but it seems like I may be buying a dinosaur board to replace mine.
Atwood had several control vintages of this furnace, the prior version used a thermal timing relay to run the fan and fan delay. The PC board, in this case only ran the gas valve, ignition, and flame sense circuit.
The next generation of controls did away with the timing relay and added the fan control to the PC board, which then controlled that fan and the gas valve, ignition, and flame sense.
Does your furnace have the thermal timing relay?
See the timing relay here; it is on the right end of the blower housing.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49022085107_a06840eb6a_o.jpg width=640
Here is the newer vintage with the fan control on the PC board—no thermal timing relay. A PC wire plug is on the front of the PC board; a blue wire, the T stat run signal, was added and is part of the fan control. The T stat run signal on the older thermal timing relay received the T stat signal.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4695/39690690611_652195ac8d_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/4723/39690695511_f3e752d7c6_o.jpg width=640
https://live.staticflickr.com/4694/39690694311_f5d977d08e_o.jpg width=640
This PC board has fan control on it. The black relay on the PC board in this pic is for the fan motor (the red wire is the fan motor hot wire, and the blue next to it is incoming 12-volt power for the fan motor). The round coil igniter also has a red wire but different insulation and goes to the electrode.
Some checks, and this assumes you have a 12.5 DC power or higher coming to the furnace.
If yours has the timing relay, they have been known to go bad over time. If you connect the two blue wires within a short period, the blower should run; if the blower will not run, either the motor is bad (less likely) or the thermal timing relay is bad (more likely). Check the fan power wires and see if it is getting power; if there is no power, then the relay is bad.
If you have no timing relay and twist the two blue wires, the fan should run after a few seconds as the PC board controls the fan motor. Check the fan motor power wire coming out of the PC board to see if the board is sending incoming DC voltage to the motor. If the board is sending power, then the motor has issues. If the board is not sending voltage, the board has issues.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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02/25/23 09:47pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Negative and ground wire questions
I'll bring up something to consider.
How long are you planning on keeping the camper?
Do they use salt on the roads in your area in winter?
Is the camper stored outside uncovered most or all of the time?
I restore older campers, mainly the 10 to 20-year-olds range. All of them were not stored inside or had minimal cover when outside. You can learn a lot from an older camper on how things fail.
Frame ground is bad news as a wire conductor as the camper ages when exposed to the elements. The DOT lights use frame ground, the brakes are often set up from the factory using frame ground, the LP pipe, and, yes, battery negative needs to go to frame ground. Corrosion is alive and well in an older camper when stored outside. Aluminum or copper connectors on the wire to the frame are also exposed. This frame ground setup works as a DC conductor when the camper is new. As the camper ages, the corrosion will start making issues.
During a camper restore, I added a DC negative wire to the brakes and the DOT lights to eliminate the frame ground, as the wire connection terminals and the rusted metal connections were all bad. The camper brands I have worked on had the power converter already set up with DC negative with a wire directly to the converter. The weak link, though, was the exposed aluminum terminal block which joined all the DC ground wires at the frame by the battery. That area also gets corrected.
The suggestion is to run your upgraded heavy wire on the DC negative to the power converter if you want to keep the camper for a long time where corrosion conditions exist, as I asked about above.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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02/24/23 10:13pm |
Do It Yourself Modifications and Upgrades (DIY)
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RE: Electric galley slide issues_Slim Rack_2018 Seismic 4212
Okay, so the wife and I purchased a 2018 Jayco Seismic 4212 last year and we noticed right off the bat that our galley slide seemed sluggish and possibly out of alignment.
Well, we used it a lot last year and after some time, it started really struggling to come in at first. Most times, it will come in an inch at a time for a bit, then eventually come in normally.
Now, this has tracks on the side (not a schwintek) and I noticed they had a sticky grease type lube on them. I washed them and put some dry lube on them. I also put grease on the bottom where the rollers are. No change.
Well, we bought a 5 year warranty with this RV and I checked it in with the dealer a month ago. They're telling me the interior gears and motor needs to be replaced.
$5,000.00 and they doubt the warranty company will cover it. They asked me if I greased the gear rails, I told them I used that dry lube, but only after the slide was acting up.
I'm going to get the RV tomorrow, because they need the space and it's going to be a little bit before this gets figured out.
My question is, can the motor and gear wheels be saved? Can I get in there with some cleaning agents and clean the gear teeth enough to save everything, or is it a worthless cause?
I have no idea how I'm going to prove to the warranty company that the damage was done before we bought it.
At this point, I'm hesitant to do anything, I thought lubing the gear teeth was the right thing to do (metal gears usually need lube), but apparently that's not the case and I don't want to make a bad situation worse.
I wish there was a warning sticker there that stated to not use grease on the gear rails. They have warnings for everything else.
Hi,
Your post title stated the words hydraulic, but the blue paraphrased wording the dearer told you, sounds different. The motor and gears seem to point to an electric rack and pinion system.
I tried to see if I could find something about your camper. This manual from Jayco on a 2018 Seismic https://www.jayco.com/manuals/?RvManualSearch%5Byear%5D=2018&RvManualSearch%5Btype%5D=15&RvManualSearch%5Blanguage%5D=en
Has a large section on slides, and you flip to the system you have. Granted it is not uncommon to not have the manual line up with the camper in this kind of detail, but they do not mention any hydraulic slide systems that I saw. It may be they never updated the manual. Where did you get the idea your system was a hydraulic slide drive?
Yes, please post some pictures of the gears on the side and the slide drive system under the camper.
I have not had to deal with/repair the hydraulic slide yet, and on the ones I have seen, the hydraulic cylinder attaches to a gear rack where an elector motor drive (ball screw) would go. But I have worked on many electric drive rack and pinion systems and may be able to help on that part. Maybe we all learn something new here.
Hope this helps.
John
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JBarca
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02/24/23 07:02am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Should I Buy The Dealer's Hitch
Reading on all this hitch talk trying to figure out what we should purchase. For 14 years we towed a 32' Sunny Brook using a Hensley. Like dummies we sold the whole thing as one unit.
Here we are two years later missing camping and starting all over again. We will have a Chevy 2500 and possibly a Forest River Wildwood 31KQBTS rolling in at a total of 36'7" - weight at 8573.
Not as heavy as our previous trailer but 3' longer.
Been out of the game for a long while and not sure whether to dump the money on a ProPride or if other hitches have come along way since 2006 and something else would be just as good.
Any suggestions??
Thanks!
Hi,
I'm showing this trying to be helpful, so you can see what that camper is and how it stacks up against your camping situation.
If this is the trailer you are looking at, https://forestriverinc.com/rvs/travel-trailers-and-fifth-wheels/wildwood/31KQBTS/6897
The Unloaded weight (UVW) is 8,573# which means an empty camper, no battery, and since a spare tire is an option, no spare tire is most likely.
The Cargo capacity (CCC) is listed as 1,292#. I'll add a comment that CCC is low in my view on a 36' 7" long camper with bunks. WOW, you will have to watch the weights, or you will overrun the GVWR easily. You have a lot of space, but the ratings do not allow much cargo capacity. The bunks suggest kids; kids have the stuff to bring too. Trust me; the adults have stuff too...
Adding UVW + CCC = 9,865# GVWR.
The dry empty tongue weight is 905#. When that floor plans loads, the loaded tongue could be 1,200, maybe 1,300#.
You can end up without much issue having close to a 10,000# camper with 12 to 13% loaded tongue weight. The tongue weight to gross vehicle weight ratio is OK, don't go lighter. You do not want to get lighter on the tongue on a camper that long.
In my opinion, you want a WD hitch for a travel trailer of that size. The truck receiver may require it to handle the 1,200 to 1,300# tongue weight. Check the sticker on the receiver; there are 2 ratings. Weight carrying and Weight Distribution. And if you are on the original 2006 GM receiver, have it checked for weld cracks and rust at the pin box weld. You may need a receiver upgrade.
Now to a camper 37 ft long, you did not state your wheelbase. Since you are looking at a bunkhouse, that can mean kids, which may mean a crew cab. The crew cab helps on the wheelbase. The long bed is better than a short bed, but the short bed crew cab can work if the hitch setup is good.
Now the hitch. I have an F350 CC, short bed with the Reese DC, 16% loaded tongue weight, 10K loaded 32 ft camper. The heavy suspension truck and the hitch work well with this combo, but it is not invincible. You are 5 ft longer on lighter truck suspension. From my experience, the Reese DC or the Equal-I-izer WD hitch would be the minimum setup. You get WD and some anti-sway help. When large cross winds come, the odds are favorable that at 37 ft you will find the edge of your truck and either of those two hitches to tame out heavy cross winds, 30 mph plus. You are going to feel it.
Everyone has how close to the edge they want to tow at and have comfortable towing. At 37 ft I would look if I can find an older Pullrite WD hitch or go with the Pro
Pride/Hensley. Pullrite is used to make one of the best towing concepts WD hitches. But I see they no longer even show it on their website. It may be discontinued.
You may want to look hard at the CCC of that trailer you are looking at. Odds are, you will run out of cargo capacity by the weights on that length camper. They likely have the suspension on the camper-sized right at the limit having the truck hold up part of the GVWR. And maybe even the new infamous 4,400# axle setup with 10" brakes. ERRRR. They do not list the tire size or axle ratings. I'm a little more old school. A 10K camper should have 10,000# of running gear on it. And tires rated 20% higher then the heaviest wheel.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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02/22/23 11:06pm |
Towing
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RE: Stuck in yard, ruts. Install driveway? Ideas please.
What is your soil like? That does play a big part in what you can and should do. Here in central OH, we have a good amount of clay mixed into the soil. The day after a hefty rain, anything significant in weight, a camper, a truck etc, running over the lawn or worse bare dirt, will sink out of sight in the muck. Three days later, with the sun shining, that same dirt will be hard as concrete with 1/2" wide cracks in bare dirt.
At our prior Ohio place 30 minute south of our current place, I buried the K2500 Suburban and the camper in the front lawn in the spring, trying to back in and turn around on the lawn. Bad mistake... And it had not even rained the day before. It was just a soft spring Ohio clay lawn.
When we moved to the new place 30 miles north, I ensured the entire barnyard was big enough to turn the camper around in the yard any time of year.
I'm sharing a suggestion not knowing your soil. It will work in the muck we have. Take up the sod on top. Dig out at least 6 to 8" of soil. Fill with #304 or #411 limestone. Both of these grades have fines in them and will pack hard. The top will be slimy until a few rains wash the fines off the top. But after that, it will be solid any time of year. If you want later to make it look pretty, you and put a fine layer of crushed stone on top of your choice. I do not suggest using just #57 crushed stone deep, it moves around a lot. The 304/411's stay put with the fines in between.
For our current place, we dug out 6 to 8" and, in some places 10" to level it out and backfilled it with recycled asphalt. They grind it up off the highways. In my case, I rented a vibratory roller and packed it about every 3" of fill, and built it up. This was the cheapest fill. Come the hot summer months; it will start to reactivate and stick together. The bottom will become hard. I had 500 10-ton truckloads brought in. Yes, it is a big yard. Mine was as they ground it up off the highway, so it had some larger chunks in it. It is not an issue on the bottom layers, but I had to pick up the chucks on the top surfaces. Not a problem, just more work, but for the price, it was worth it. Some sellers of recycled asphalt have a grinder, and they process it before you get it. It costs more, but you do not have to deal with the chucks. You have to pack this and roll it. If not the first year, come summer, it will sink, compact itself, and you end up in ruts to deal with. Pack as they are installing it or right after but you need a really big roller (think road size needing a semi to transport) if you are trying to pack the entire drive on top only.
My driveway was put up in 2012, and it is still in great shape. In this area, recycled asphalt is becoming more popular.
Both of these suggestions are considered a permanent choice. Concrete is great, but it needs the proper base, or it will crack. Nowadays, they can add carbon fiber to the mix and or older wire. Pending the weight of your camper, you may want 6" in place of 4" to help the cracking.
If you are looking for temporary and cheap, and direct, get the 2 x 12"'s out and line them up. It will get old in time dealing with them; they warp, split and move around, but it is quick and cheaper. Been there, and learned that.
There is no real "cheap" solution to a permanent setup. Just options that cost less. As was stated by the other poster, if your area is wet as a normal thing, get underground drainage in first.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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02/19/23 08:49am |
Do It Yourself Modifications and Upgrades (DIY)
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